On May 12, 1988, Shlomo sat for an interview, sharing his life story in his own words. The transcript below provides a detailed record of his testimony, allowing readers to locate specific words or phrases within his account of the Holocaust.
Interview transcript:
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Good afternoon, my name is Jeanie Miller.
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I am a member of the Kean College Oral
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Testimonies Project of the
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Holocaust Resource Center. We are
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affiliated with the Video Archives for
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Holocaust Testimonies at the Sterling
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Library of Yale University. Sharing the
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interview with me is Bernard Weinstein.
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We are privileged to welcome Shlomo
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Biezunski, a survivor presently living in
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Fair Lawn, New Jersey, who has generously
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volunteered to give testimony about his
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experiences before, during,
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and after the Holocaust.
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Welcome Mr. Biezunski. I wonder if you
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could tell us about the town that
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you were born in and were growing up in?
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I was born on May 13,
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1926 in the town of Łódź in Poland.
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This was a big industrial center –
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textiles. We used to call it before the war
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the Manchester of Poland. Many of the
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factories used to employ hundreds, even
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thousands of people and there was a
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population of almost 600,000.
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What percentage was Jews?
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The percentage was – one-third was Jews.
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You have – many people who developed
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the silk industry and textile industry
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in Paterson, New Jersey came from Łódź.
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It’s known – they brought – by coming
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to the United States, they brought with them
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the skills and they developed it here.
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Like I said, one-third of the
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population were Jews, were very
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involved in the trade profession and took a
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very active life in
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Jewish culture – and we actually
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had even two newspapers, that my father
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in Yiddish used to read. I remember there was Der Haynt
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and Der Moment, that was the two Jewish –
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there was a very vibrant city and my father –
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studied pharmacy in Köln.
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He had a brother. From 1918 –
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to 1920, he was in Germany, at that time, in
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the Köln University – I understand that it only
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took two years at that time to get a –
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and we had a like we call a drugstore
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here, in Łódź.
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And actually I had only an older sister,
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her name was Manya, she was born on, I don’t remember
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the date, but she was born in October 1920.
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I remember those telling that my
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father came in 1920 back to Poland and he
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went to the Army and fought with the
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Polish Army by defeating the Communists.
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It was in a famous battle, it was called the
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Miracle on the Vistula. It was a defeat for the Bolshevik Army
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at that time, the Poles under Marshal Piłsudski,
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he was a Polish marshal, and Poland became an
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independent state. We belonged to the middle class.
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We used to be members in a local synagogue –
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it was in the neighborhood. We lived on
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the street was named Narutowicza, number 40.
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It was in one of the best parts of
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Łódź. Next to us was a big
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hotel – Polonia, the name was Polonia.
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There was a main street – Piotrkowska street – it was
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the main throughway: all the cinemas
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and theaters and where the young people
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used to promenade, forth and back – it was
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a short distance. We lived on a fourth floor,
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on a five floor house, it was a very modern house
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with an elevator, at that time which was not so
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very popular in Poland. Actually, we were the middle class
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but compared to our neighbors we were
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you can say, very poor, because many
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of our neighbors were very rich and very
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influential people in the industrial part of
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Łódź. But we had the six, seven room
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apartment. My mother had always
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help. A maid, a young
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girl, a Polish girl, used to help out with the
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household, and downstairs we had our
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store. My father, every morning,
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used to go downstairs and he had also a
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help and assistant, a girl, and I used to –
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at the age of six, I started to attend a
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private school, Jewish private school, it was
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normal that the education age in Poland
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was from seven, you went to first grade, but
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if you went to a private school you
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could start at the age of six.
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And all my life, actually the next
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six years, I went to the private school.
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I was a very good reader.
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I read very well, we had a library not
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far, a private library, and I was
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very interested in reading
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different books like Zane Grey and Karl
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May and Jack London and
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Victor Hugo – even at a very early age.
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And I also took interest by
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reading newspapers. I remember being the
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age of nine – it was the beginning
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of the Ethiopian war with
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Italy – all the atrocities and
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Haile Selassie, I remember there was a song
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in Polish that they wrote, what I even still
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remember, that they wrote about the war.
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And after was the civil war in Spain
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in 1936, it started and I remember as a
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kid I was very active, very
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interested in what’s going
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on. I had an older sister, we had a very
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comfortable and pleasant life she went
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actually already when the war broke out she was
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18 and she finished a high school, was
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was a high school but also had a commercial background.,
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Every year, we used to go rent
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a cottage like here in the Catskills
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we used to go over there next to Łódź
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very wooded areas what we used to
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rent a cottage and on Sunday was my
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father used to come like Sunday, Saturday
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night to visit the family and
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in Monday morning he used to go by train back.
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And in the last year, my
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parents bought me a new
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bicycle, English-made bicycle
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and the last year of the war we actually
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stayed over there, we couldn’t get back,
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when the war broke out. I remember
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I was standing over there and seeing the
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Polish Army when they recede,
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they went back, they left Łódź and
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went back to Warsaw and I was standing
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with my bicycle and a Polish soldier
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came and took the bicycle away and just
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said what’s that, I couldn’t – but
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we knew that the war is going on
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and we had a very hard time to come back
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because there was no way we, at that time
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when you went you had a part of your
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furniture and special clothes you took
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to the summer, used to have a truck bring
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you back and forth, there was nobody to take us, we
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had everything to leave and the neighbor
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had a car, he took us and brought us home and
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my mother was very sick, she got
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dysentery from that time.
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Before we go forward, I’d like to just
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go back a little bit and ask a couple of
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questions. First, in in the years
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before the war what did being Jewish mean to you?
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Our town was a workers’ town, there was a
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very strong socialist movement.
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We knew that the Jews in Warsaw were very, you
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know treated very bad because the
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national organization were very
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anti-Semitic. We had also an anti-Semitic
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organization in Łódź, but they
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like I said the workers are
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very well organized and the workers many
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of the factories belonged to Jews and they
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were very well treated by the Jewish
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owners. Like we had over there
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Widzew Manufaktura, Mr. Max Kohn was the owner and
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the director was Rabinovich – David
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Rabinovich – and he lived in our, in the
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same house where we
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lived. And I remember the first time
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when the workers marched
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the police even stood inside the house
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and they didn’t trust them to show up.
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And actually I never experienced
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some personal anti-Semitism.
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In fact, I had neighbors, they
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had a big grocery story, and they had
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two sons and the two kids were my friends
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we used to go – across the home
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was a big park, and winter time
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we used to ride a sled – and I had a big
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Canadian sled it was a very
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special sled and they had a big
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dog and we all three used to go over
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there and the dog used to pull us with a
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sled, they had a big German Shepherd.
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But my mother was happy by having
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those friends because they all protected
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me from the other Polish kids
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nobody could touch me, those
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those boys used to protect and I was
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very welcome in their home – but
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personally, I didn’t have any trouble
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with anti-Semitism – my sister she
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belonged to the paramilitary organization
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with going to school, every kid
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like every kid in the high
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school had to – and I remember she used to
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come home, used to have the
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dark brown – brown shoes like khaki
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she even – got even a small
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medal for shooting a small medal
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but her name, I don’t know, was
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Marisha – in Polish they call it, outside
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Marisha Biezunska, that was an extreme Polish name
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Biezunski – it’s not a Jewish name, it’s an
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extreme Polish name and maybe she
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maybe she escaped over there
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in the organization and innuendos to being
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Jewish or anything, you
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know. But we know what’s happened to the
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Jews that in Poland at
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that time there was like in Krakow
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and Warsaw universities, the Jews were not allowed to sit
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there was a strike of the
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Polish students, even before the war that they
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didn’t want to sit with the Jewish
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students together they had to
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stand on the side. But like the Jews
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always find a way out they send the
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children to Germany to study
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like my sister had a boyfriend his
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name was Judenherz. I don’t know what
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was his first name, I can’t remember – but he was
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a textile engineer and he studied
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actually in Germany
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oh, I know Mr. Rabinovich, my neighbor, had a
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son studying in England – and
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before the war broke out he came to the
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store, my father, and he says Mr. Biezunski
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there will be no war, I just came from England
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and I heard Chamberlain talking
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and the day after, two days after, the
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Germans attacked Poland. That actually I was
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never mistreated in a physical way but
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like you say as a Jew
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you had to stay out of trouble
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that was the perception what
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was what they call it in Hebrew they
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call it a Galut living in a
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strange country – my family lived
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maybe for for 500, 600 years in Poland and
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they were invited by the Polish King
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Wladyslaw, I don’t remember his
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name, the history, where he invited the
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maybe 700 years back to develop
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the commerce
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but for some reason the
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Catholic Church has had a very
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big influence on the people and
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the perception even my two
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Polish friends that I had – this is very
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00:13:12,920 –> 00:13:15,560
interesting – when it comes to Good Friday
256
00:13:15,560 –> 00:13:17,519
they used to say
257
00:13:17,519 –> 00:13:19,560
“you killed our God” and I
258
00:13:19,560 –> 00:13:21,079
didn’t know the first time I was a
259
00:13:21,079 –> 00:13:23,480
little – what do you mean – I asked
260
00:13:23,480 –> 00:13:27,040
my mother what is, which God I killed?
261
00:13:27,040 –> 00:13:28,399
and she explained. They said
262
00:13:28,399 –> 00:13:30,040
this to you? They said it to me, they didn’t
263
00:13:30,040 –> 00:13:31,720
even play a day with me but
264
00:13:31,720 –> 00:13:34,959
after days everything is because the
265
00:13:34,959 –> 00:13:37,480
Catholic Church they used to
266
00:13:37,480 –> 00:13:39,480
infame the name of the Jews in
267
00:13:39,480 –> 00:13:41,199
the small villages over there as a
268
00:13:41,199 –> 00:13:43,720
priest, he was a king. – when he
269
00:13:43,720 –> 00:13:46,160
said “the black cat is a Jew”, then the black cat
270
00:13:46,160 –> 00:13:48,680
is a Jew everything and you
271
00:13:48,680 –> 00:13:51,600
know for 2,000 years, the Jews were persecuted
272
00:13:51,600 –> 00:13:54,800
because of the notions that they killed Christ and
273
00:13:54,800 –> 00:13:56,519
then they used to call us “Christ killer”.
274
00:13:56,519 –> 00:13:58,639
As a young boy, how did you take
275
00:13:58,639 –> 00:14:00,880
that – that kind
276
00:14:00,880 –> 00:14:04,560
of statement? I tell you, I was – at first
277
00:14:04,560 –> 00:14:06,560
I was shocked, I didn’t understand that, I
278
00:14:06,560 –> 00:14:08,600
didn’t know there a story, but when my
279
00:14:08,600 –> 00:14:10,759
mother explained to me, she says
280
00:14:10,759 –> 00:14:12,480
they don’t know better you cannot
281
00:14:12,480 –> 00:14:14,880
blame them
282
00:14:14,880 –> 00:14:17,160
because that what they are taught
283
00:14:17,160 –> 00:14:20,040
they go to Sunday school and that is
284
00:14:20,040 –> 00:14:21,759
what the priests are teaching them,
285
00:14:21,759 –> 00:14:24,279
they keep the flame of
286
00:14:24,279 –> 00:14:27,079
hatred always burning. I wanted
287
00:14:27,079 –> 00:14:29,399
to know about your Jewish home life – did
288
00:14:29,399 –> 00:14:30,959
you go to the synagogue and did you
289
00:14:30,959 –> 00:14:35,000
celebrate? No, you see,
290
00:14:35,600 –> 00:14:40,320
we actually used to have Saturday, the
291
00:14:40,320 –> 00:14:42,920
store open, because we were not far
292
00:14:42,920 –> 00:14:46,199
across from the main station,
293
00:14:46,199 –> 00:14:49,000
railroad station, and all the peasants – not
294
00:14:49,000 –> 00:14:50,880
the poor peasant, but the rich peasant – used
295
00:14:50,880 –> 00:14:53,959
to come to to town for shopping
296
00:14:53,959 –> 00:14:56,519
Saturday and buy cosmetics,
297
00:14:56,519 –> 00:14:58,880
perfumes, things like that.
298
00:14:58,880 –> 00:15:00,920
And that was a very important day.
299
00:15:00,920 –> 00:15:02,639
You made on a Saturday, the
300
00:15:02,639 –> 00:15:05,040
income was much larger than during the
301
00:15:05,040 –> 00:15:08,279
week and for material purposes
302
00:15:08,279 –> 00:15:11,639
the door has to be open Saturday. But
303
00:15:11,639 –> 00:15:15,000
we observed Friday night. We used
304
00:15:15,000 –> 00:15:17,800
to have all the family, a really
305
00:15:17,800 –> 00:15:19,480
ritual Friday
306
00:15:19,480 –> 00:15:23,279
night evening meal with fish and meat and
307
00:15:23,279 –> 00:15:26,320
cake and even coffee. I remember
308
00:15:26,320 –> 00:15:28,120
coming home from school I used to get a
309
00:15:28,120 –> 00:15:30,480
light meal like a hamburger
310
00:15:30,480 –> 00:15:35,680
because in the evening we had a big meal.
311
00:15:35,720 –> 00:15:38,120
Did you go to Hebrew school?
312
00:15:38,120 –> 00:15:42,199
Yes, we went to Hebrew school.
313
00:15:42,199 –> 00:15:44,319
I went to a private Jewish, private
314
00:15:44,319 –> 00:15:46,880
school – always Hebrew was one of those –
315
00:15:46,880 –> 00:15:50,240
it’s amazing that I was always so
316
00:15:50,240 –> 00:15:52,759
bad in Hebrew, then I came to Israel
317
00:15:52,759 –> 00:15:56,079
and I speak Hebrew. Now I always – I can
318
00:15:56,079 –> 00:15:57,680
remember that the teacher said he’s a
319
00:15:57,680 –> 00:16:00,800
terrific student, only the Hebrew he
320
00:16:00,800 –> 00:16:03,959
hasn’t got it. For some reason, I couldn’t
321
00:16:03,959 –> 00:16:07,360
catch on with the Hebrew. But I did very
322
00:16:07,360 –> 00:16:08,519
well in Israel.
323
00:16:08,519 –> 00:16:11,639
And we used to go to the holidays
324
00:16:11,639 –> 00:16:13,440
I cannot say that my father used to go
325
00:16:13,440 –> 00:16:15,920
every Friday. No, we used to go on
326
00:16:15,920 –> 00:16:19,959
big holidays like Passover, Yom Kippur,
327
00:16:19,959 –> 00:16:22,759
then two days of the new year –
328
00:16:22,759 –> 00:16:25,839
the main holidays used to be observed.
329
00:16:25,839 –> 00:16:29,639
When did you notice that
330
00:16:29,639 –> 00:16:32,079
your environment began to change
331
00:16:32,079 –> 00:16:34,480
because of the war? At this time, when you
332
00:16:34,480 –> 00:16:36,560
went on a summer retreat?
333
00:16:36,561 –> 00:16:40,600
We came to the summer retreat, the man brought
334
00:16:40,600 –> 00:16:43,240
us back and my mom’s mother had to go
335
00:16:43,240 –> 00:16:46,600
to the hospital. And the hospital at that time
336
00:16:46,600 –> 00:16:49,360
was very crowded because already the
337
00:16:49,360 –> 00:16:52,560
war was in progress. But Łódź was bombed
338
00:16:52,560 –> 00:16:56,399
and was not damaged because
339
00:16:56,399 –> 00:17:02,000
from what I understand, the commander –
340
00:17:02,000 –> 00:17:05,240
was named Frank – and Frank is a Volksdeutsch
341
00:17:05,240 –> 00:17:08,679
they call it Volksdeutsch, it was a Polish-German.
342
00:17:08,679 –> 00:17:12,000
For some reason, they bombed a little
343
00:17:12,000 –> 00:17:14,480
but they shelled it actually and
344
00:17:14,480 –> 00:17:17,079
after six days the German were in Łódź – that’s it.
345
00:17:17,079 –> 00:17:19,520
You’re speaking of Hans Frank the
346
00:17:19,520 –> 00:17:21,839
governor general? No, no, no –
347
00:17:21,839 –> 00:17:23,839
another Frank.
348
00:17:23,839 –> 00:17:27,520
And the war was – that’s it.
349
00:17:27,520 –> 00:17:31,440
In six days, Warsaw was encircled
350
00:17:31,440 –> 00:17:33,960
and then Łódź was. They were
351
00:17:33,960 –> 00:17:37,120
marching, I remember they put a big
352
00:17:37,120 –> 00:17:41,480
proclamation: the whole population of Łódź has to come
353
00:17:41,480 –> 00:17:43,880
out to the main street Piotrkowska
354
00:17:43,880 –> 00:17:51,039
… from the west, and we have
355
00:17:51,039 –> 00:17:54,120
to show appreciation to the
356
00:17:54,120 –> 00:17:57,320
victorious German army. And believe it or not
357
00:17:57,320 –> 00:17:59,679
everybody went, I went myself, and I
358
00:17:59,679 –> 00:18:03,080
was very impressed at that time. Were the proclamations
359
00:18:03,080 –> 00:18:05,480
in Polish? No, in German, in Polish and in German.
360
00:18:05,480 –> 00:18:07,919
Yes, and there was a main city hall and
361
00:18:07,919 –> 00:18:10,080
they put on city hall a flag out
362
00:18:10,080 –> 00:18:12,919
from the fifth story, the big
363
00:18:12,919 –> 00:18:14,960
swastika, from all the front.
364
00:18:14,960 –> 00:18:18,000
And as a kid I went also
365
00:18:18,000 –> 00:18:21,159
and I was very, very – they
366
00:18:21,159 –> 00:18:22,880
came with a tremendous might, everything.
367
00:18:22,880 –> 00:18:24,520
Like the Polish soldier used to march – they
368
00:18:24,520 –> 00:18:26,400
came all motorized with cars,
369
00:18:26,400 –> 00:18:28,320
with trucks, with tanks, even the
370
00:18:28,320 –> 00:18:30,360
horses used to be on track they have
371
00:18:30,360 –> 00:18:32,080
some kind cavalry.
372
00:18:32,080 –> 00:18:36,480
And the hotel next to us, Polonia
373
00:18:36,480 –> 00:18:38,919
they throw all the people out –
374
00:18:38,919 –> 00:18:44,919
it was all in Jewish ownership, in fact, and they put
375
00:18:44,919 –> 00:18:48,280
officers over there, the German officers in there
376
00:18:48,280 –> 00:18:50,039
and you head over there, right away,
377
00:18:50,039 –> 00:18:53,000
a German soldier standing guard.
378
00:18:53,000 –> 00:18:55,600
You went by, you had to bow and take your
379
00:18:55,600 –> 00:18:58,799
hat off – this was a – then if a German
380
00:18:58,799 –> 00:19:01,120
soldier walked by you had to go off the
381
00:19:01,120 –> 00:19:04,480
street and let him pass.
382
00:19:04,480 –> 00:19:07,480
And you have to greet him, over there people
383
00:19:07,480 –> 00:19:08,960
wear hats, you have to take your hat off.
384
00:19:08,960 –> 00:19:11,720
How soon after the invasion did this happen?
385
00:19:11,720 –> 00:19:18,080
This was in the first month. This was September,
386
00:19:18,080 –> 00:19:23,720
October, November, December, was the army, in fact,
387
00:19:23,720 –> 00:19:27,120
in charge of Łódź. They didn’t
388
00:19:27,120 –> 00:19:29,960
actually discriminate against the Jews
389
00:19:29,960 –> 00:19:34,320
everybody was included – the Poles and the
390
00:19:34,320 –> 00:19:37,559
Jews and in fact we had a booming
391
00:19:37,559 –> 00:19:40,559
business going we had soaps
392
00:19:40,559 –> 00:19:43,559
in a big storage over there
393
00:19:43,559 –> 00:19:46,080
the Palmolive, Colgate, and others.
394
00:19:46,080 –> 00:19:48,919
We had all the best cosmetics in there
395
00:19:48,919 –> 00:19:51,000
from all the international made –
396
00:19:51,000 –> 00:19:53,280
from Germany, from England, from
397
00:19:53,280 –> 00:19:55,799
America and we had soaps and the Germans
398
00:19:55,799 –> 00:19:57,840
were crazy after soaps. They didn’t, for
399
00:19:57,840 –> 00:19:59,480
some reason, didn’t have enough soap.
400
00:19:59,480 –> 00:20:02,039
We had soap where the fragrance was
401
00:20:02,039 –> 00:20:03,720
gone, but the soap was good.
402
00:20:03,720 –> 00:20:05,520
Normally, you cannot sell it, but they used
403
00:20:05,520 –> 00:20:08,200
to buy cartons of it to send home
404
00:20:08,200 –> 00:20:10,280
they didn’t have any soap over there.
405
00:20:10,280 –> 00:20:12,679
We had for women milk
406
00:20:12,679 –> 00:20:15,400
like for skin, they used to
407
00:20:15,400 –> 00:20:16,960
buy everything. They used to pay – they had
408
00:20:16,960 –> 00:20:18,960
a tremendous amount of money and they
409
00:20:18,960 –> 00:20:21,640
paid everything. It was interesting at
410
00:20:21,640 –> 00:20:24,559
that time the girl we had to work
411
00:20:24,559 –> 00:20:28,080
with us, our maid, left for the village and
412
00:20:28,080 –> 00:20:30,039
also the girl my father employed in
413
00:20:30,039 –> 00:20:33,799
the store, she left, and we had a girl from
414
00:20:33,799 –> 00:20:35,760
a neighbor, she was a Jewish girl, but she
415
00:20:35,760 –> 00:20:38,520
looked more German than
416
00:20:38,520 –> 00:20:41,200
the Germans. Long blonde hair,
417
00:20:41,200 –> 00:20:44,799
and name was Eva. And she helped out
418
00:20:44,799 –> 00:20:46,480
my father and the Germans used to come
419
00:20:46,480 –> 00:20:49,520
in and they didn’t even realize because
420
00:20:49,520 –> 00:20:52,120
my father spoke perfect German
421
00:20:52,120 –> 00:20:56,000
my mother spoke perfect German and
422
00:20:56,000 –> 00:20:58,640
he said “you are Jews?” This is
423
00:20:58,640 –> 00:21:00,000
impossible – because they know the Jews
424
00:21:00,000 –> 00:21:02,120
from Der Stürmer with the nose
425
00:21:02,120 –> 00:21:04,320
and my father and my family we all had
426
00:21:04,320 –> 00:21:06,840
light eyes, straight nose
427
00:21:06,840 –> 00:21:09,280
narrow lips, and they only know the
428
00:21:09,280 –> 00:21:11,360
German – the Jews from some German’s
429
00:21:11,360 –> 00:21:15,159
Der Stürmer, it was the Stürmer – caricature
430
00:21:15,159 –> 00:21:16,880
And they didn’t believe – people like here,
431
00:21:16,880 –> 00:21:19,559
speak German, was so nice.
432
00:21:19,559 –> 00:21:21,520
And the officers used to
433
00:21:21,520 –> 00:21:23,279
sit over there we had like a small corner, you
434
00:21:23,279 –> 00:21:25,880
couldn’t get rid of them. They bought everything.
435
00:21:25,880 –> 00:21:32,040
But after, the Partei people came in – the
436
00:21:32,041 –> 00:21:38,640
Gestapo, the SS, and you had to put
437
00:21:38,640 –> 00:21:44,559
“Jewish store” in the window. And they used to take
438
00:21:44,559 –> 00:21:46,279
the Jews, pick them up in the street, to
439
00:21:46,279 –> 00:21:50,360
work for the German government and for the
440
00:21:50,360 –> 00:21:53,159
military, and everything. And in fact,
441
00:21:53,159 –> 00:21:58,120
we had a the big house – my mother,
442
00:21:58,120 –> 00:21:59,799
my grandmother had her room and she
443
00:21:59,799 –> 00:22:04,200
died before the war and then the maid,
444
00:22:04,200 –> 00:22:06,480
the service maid, also had a room – she left
445
00:22:06,480 –> 00:22:09,559
and we were left with a big house
446
00:22:09,559 –> 00:22:12,760
and they put a German officer, we had
447
00:22:12,760 –> 00:22:15,159
to take in like a tenant. German officer,
448
00:22:15,159 –> 00:22:22,880
with his servant – was a soldier servant.
449
00:22:22,880 –> 00:22:27,279
But he was an old timer, he was like an
450
00:22:27,279 –> 00:22:33,760
… administrative officer, not a fighting man
451
00:22:33,760 –> 00:22:37,120
In some way, he was very
452
00:22:37,120 –> 00:22:39,080
helpful because the Germans used to
453
00:22:39,080 –> 00:22:41,039
get drunk and used to look for
454
00:22:41,039 –> 00:22:43,080
women, for Jewish women, and raped them.
455
00:22:43,080 –> 00:22:45,480
And he said “your daughter
456
00:22:45,480 –> 00:22:47,279
might be in danger” but then he said
457
00:22:47,279 –> 00:22:48,960
“any knock on the door, you let me know”
458
00:22:48,960 –> 00:22:51,600
“don’t open it, I will get rid of them”
459
00:22:51,600 –> 00:22:56,520
… and sometimes he used to bring
460
00:22:56,520 –> 00:22:58,799
a loaf of bread because
461
00:22:58,799 –> 00:23:02,000
everything got a little tight and scarce
462
00:23:02,000 –> 00:23:04,600
But one day, for some reason, I
463
00:23:04,600 –> 00:23:06,200
don’t know – because my father is a
464
00:23:06,200 –> 00:23:08,039
pharmacist, he was an officer in the
465
00:23:08,039 –> 00:23:12,320
Polish Reserve, but in 1939 they
466
00:23:12,320 –> 00:23:13,679
didn’t call him to the
467
00:23:13,679 –> 00:23:16,400
army. But the there was German
468
00:23:16,400 –> 00:23:18,559
propaganda, they said
469
00:23:18,559 –> 00:23:20,640
everybody should go and and fight for
470
00:23:20,640 –> 00:23:23,159
Warsaw and a thousand people went
471
00:23:23,159 –> 00:23:25,279
for Warsaw marching, to help,
472
00:23:25,279 –> 00:23:27,880
to protect Warsaw. And they came with
473
00:23:27,880 –> 00:23:30,440
with planes and shot and
474
00:23:30,440 –> 00:23:32,440
massacred the people on the roads – all was
475
00:23:32,440 –> 00:23:34,360
blocked, the Polish Army couldn’t
476
00:23:34,360 –> 00:23:37,480
move, it almost like a some kind of plan
477
00:23:37,480 –> 00:23:40,640
to block the road. And my father
478
00:23:40,640 –> 00:23:43,799
he saw many men left and my father saw
479
00:23:43,799 –> 00:23:47,080
that it’s no business I never
480
00:23:47,080 –> 00:23:48,840
get a life … he was an old
481
00:23:48,840 –> 00:23:52,120
soldier, he came back. Was this the first
482
00:23:52,120 –> 00:23:56,600
real atrocity you saw taking place
483
00:23:56,600 –> 00:24:00,200
that involved mass killing.
484
00:24:00,200 –> 00:24:03,200
Yeah, I didn’t see it, I was home
485
00:24:03,200 –> 00:24:05,360
with my mother and my sister
486
00:24:05,360 –> 00:24:07,440
but he came and he says this is a provocation
487
00:24:07,440 –> 00:24:11,120
because the people … the thousands of people were going
488
00:24:11,120 –> 00:24:12,960
to Warsaw, they blocked the Polish army
489
00:24:12,960 –> 00:24:15,320
from reaching Warsaw and the Germans
490
00:24:15,320 –> 00:24:17,960
came with those Stuka planes
491
00:24:17,960 –> 00:24:20,760
and they just massacred them with machine
492
00:24:20,760 –> 00:24:24,200
gun fire – and he said
493
00:24:24,200 –> 00:24:25,960
after the first, second attack, he said
494
00:24:25,960 –> 00:24:28,600
there’s no way I’m going to do that. I’m
495
00:24:28,600 –> 00:24:31,200
going back to my family. What’s happened happened.
496
00:24:31,200 –> 00:24:34,679
We had a neighbor with a son and he
497
00:24:34,679 –> 00:24:37,039
went over there and he came back after
498
00:24:37,039 –> 00:24:42,840
the war, but they also didn’t survive – I don’t know.
499
00:24:42,840 –> 00:24:45,440
But after that, the worst thing that happened
500
00:24:45,440 –> 00:24:49,240
there was in January, I remember
501
00:24:49,240 –> 00:24:51,240
it was in January
502
00:24:51,240 –> 00:24:54,480
we had some prominent Jewish
503
00:24:54,480 –> 00:24:57,240
neighbors I told you – one of
504
00:24:57,240 –> 00:24:59,880
the neighbors there, Rabinovich, he had a car
505
00:24:59,880 –> 00:25:01,880
in Poland with a chauffeur – in
506
00:25:01,880 –> 00:25:04,960
Poland at that time, car with a chauffeur –
507
00:25:04,960 –> 00:25:07,039
you have to be very prominent – he
508
00:25:07,039 –> 00:25:09,760
took his wife with the chauffeur and he has a
509
00:25:09,760 –> 00:25:11,880
daughter, and two sons were in England at
510
00:25:11,880 –> 00:25:15,559
that time studying, and he went to Latvia,
511
00:25:15,559 –> 00:25:18,120
… and from that he went to
512
00:25:18,120 –> 00:25:21,240
I don’t know where, but he lived in
513
00:25:21,240 –> 00:25:26,840
Mexico after the war and
514
00:25:26,840 –> 00:25:30,919
what the Jews lost in Łódź
515
00:25:30,919 –> 00:25:33,200
you cannot even imagine – the
516
00:25:33,200 –> 00:25:35,559
factory, Max Kohn also I think was in
517
00:25:35,559 –> 00:25:37,840
Mexico, left for Mexico, but those
518
00:25:37,840 –> 00:25:39,320
people at that time were
519
00:25:39,320 –> 00:25:41,720
multi-millionaires. They had 10 thousands
520
00:25:41,720 –> 00:25:43,240
of people working for them
521
00:25:43,240 –> 00:25:45,760
in the textile. There was a family
522
00:25:45,760 –> 00:25:48,440
Poznański – they had like a
523
00:25:48,440 –> 00:25:50,159
castle, villa in the middle of Łódź
524
00:25:50,159 –> 00:25:52,720
surrounded by a big fence.
525
00:25:52,720 –> 00:25:55,720
They used to be customers of ours,
526
00:25:55,720 –> 00:25:58,760
by telephone, I used to deliver
527
00:25:58,760 –> 00:26:01,080
and we went to the Poznańskis and I used to go
528
00:26:01,080 –> 00:26:02,840
to deliver, I only just wanted to go
529
00:26:02,840 –> 00:26:05,000
in and see the riches of of the
530
00:26:05,000 –> 00:26:07,120
of those people, how they live, and they give
531
00:26:07,120 –> 00:26:09,559
you a good tip too. Now, we had
532
00:26:09,559 –> 00:26:10,960
the boy, Polish boy, used to
533
00:26:10,960 –> 00:26:13,799
deliver the packages, but over there I
534
00:26:13,799 –> 00:26:15,640
used to go because I wanted to
535
00:26:15,640 –> 00:26:23,399
see … many of them – and one day – we had
536
00:26:23,399 –> 00:26:24,960
many officees over there in the house and
537
00:26:24,960 –> 00:26:26,679
they never bothered my father because
538
00:26:26,679 –> 00:26:28,720
they knew there was a store and we had
539
00:26:28,720 –> 00:26:31,399
many German officers work, live
540
00:26:31,399 –> 00:26:35,399
each of the Jewish families
541
00:26:35,399 –> 00:26:37,840
they had so much room they had to take in.
542
00:26:37,840 –> 00:26:41,960
And we had like an inside yard,
543
00:26:41,960 –> 00:26:43,200
the whole inside yard was
544
00:26:43,200 –> 00:26:45,520
filled with German cars. We had a
545
00:26:45,520 –> 00:26:47,520
porter, a man who used to be in
546
00:26:47,520 –> 00:26:53,480
charge of their home, the yard,
547
00:26:53,480 –> 00:26:56,000
and everything. But they never bother my
548
00:26:56,000 –> 00:26:57,440
father because they knew him –
549
00:26:57,440 –> 00:26:59,000
sometimes you have to push the car to start,
550
00:26:59,000 –> 00:27:00,840
they used to pick up people from the
551
00:27:00,840 –> 00:27:03,520
street. But one day the Gestapo came and
552
00:27:03,520 –> 00:27:05,320
picked him up. It was in January.
553
00:27:05,320 –> 00:27:08,399
And they picked up 360 more
554
00:27:08,399 –> 00:27:10,960
Jewish people I don’t know … more than 300.
555
00:27:10,960 –> 00:27:13,840
And they took him over there, we
556
00:27:13,840 –> 00:27:16,320
used to have an electric tram station, you
557
00:27:16,320 –> 00:27:18,320
used to have to take a tram
558
00:27:18,320 –> 00:27:21,039
in Łódź. Trolley car. Yeah, trolley car.
559
00:27:21,039 –> 00:27:23,880
And – they shot him.
560
00:27:23,880 –> 00:27:27,600
Just shot them all to death.
561
00:27:27,600 –> 00:27:29,840
And the irony was that they
562
00:27:29,840 –> 00:27:33,080
contacted the family,
563
00:27:33,080 –> 00:27:36,000
and said to pick up the body.
564
00:27:36,000 –> 00:27:38,840
And my mother, my sister she was 18
565
00:27:38,840 –> 00:27:40,399
years old, she was afraid, they were
566
00:27:40,399 –> 00:27:43,399
two women. And I had the
567
00:27:43,399 –> 00:27:46,880
Canadian sled, the big sled, and I
568
00:27:46,880 –> 00:27:49,120
took another kid and we went over there
569
00:27:49,120 –> 00:27:52,919
and we took the body and covered it with …
570
00:27:52,919 –> 00:27:55,399
I don’t remember what was it and we
571
00:27:55,399 –> 00:27:58,720
schlepped all the way to the Jewish cemetery
572
00:27:58,720 –> 00:28:00,600
to get buried over there, all the bodies.
573
00:28:00,600 –> 00:28:05,200
How old were you? I was at that time
574
00:28:05,200 –> 00:28:08,159
almost 13 years old.
575
00:28:08,159 –> 00:28:11,159
That was a very tragic experience
576
00:28:11,159 –> 00:28:16,080
and it shattered our lives
577
00:28:18,080 –> 00:28:21,399
and luckily my mother was a
578
00:28:21,399 –> 00:28:24,120
very strong woman, a very
579
00:28:24,120 –> 00:28:28,799
business woman, and she
580
00:28:28,799 –> 00:28:34,760
said she took all the means to cancel,
581
00:28:34,760 –> 00:28:36,799
to close the store, to sell everything she
582
00:28:36,799 –> 00:28:41,000
knows. And in fact, in May, we got the
583
00:28:41,000 –> 00:28:44,159
order that we have to move to the Jewish
584
00:28:44,159 –> 00:28:46,760
quarter, the ghetto – it was all part of the
585
00:28:46,760 –> 00:28:51,279
Jewish quarters, the first time I came face-to-face
586
00:28:51,279 –> 00:28:53,320
with the Jewish proletariat, the Jewish
587
00:28:53,320 –> 00:28:55,080
working people. I never met people working
588
00:28:55,080 –> 00:28:57,039
in the factory Jews, but over there you had
589
00:28:57,039 –> 00:28:59,720
the part where Jewish workers used to
590
00:28:59,720 –> 00:29:01,799
have small factories, home factories
591
00:29:01,799 –> 00:29:05,200
to work in the home.
592
00:29:05,200 –> 00:29:08,000
And we rent a room … Jewish family
593
00:29:08,000 –> 00:29:11,279
and we only were allowed to
594
00:29:11,279 –> 00:29:14,240
take some bedding and some pots
595
00:29:14,240 –> 00:29:16,760
and everything has to be left
596
00:29:16,760 –> 00:29:20,279
and we just had to move in the ghetto, and we
597
00:29:20,279 –> 00:29:23,960
had over there a room in a family and we lived
598
00:29:23,960 –> 00:29:27,039
for six, seven months. After, they enlarged
599
00:29:27,039 –> 00:29:28,760
the ghetto they took
600
00:29:28,760 –> 00:29:31,600
a part of the Polish part of
601
00:29:31,600 –> 00:29:37,399
Łódź … they moved the Poles out and moved the Jews
602
00:29:37,399 –> 00:29:40,120
in then we get a house maybe four
603
00:29:40,120 –> 00:29:42,559
four rooms – a house with four rooms and
604
00:29:42,559 –> 00:29:45,200
each room was actually a living quarter
605
00:29:45,200 –> 00:29:47,720
everything was in their room, there was a pot and
606
00:29:47,720 –> 00:29:49,919
a stove in the middle and that’s
607
00:29:49,919 –> 00:29:52,559
it. That’s like the people live, with an out
608
00:29:52,559 –> 00:29:55,559
house outside, from brick, was lucky was
609
00:29:55,559 –> 00:29:57,720
from brick because the first winter we
610
00:29:57,720 –> 00:29:59,720
have nothing for indoor heat and all
611
00:29:59,720 –> 00:30:01,799
the fences between the houses were gone
612
00:30:01,799 –> 00:30:07,320
even the wooden door from the out house was stolen
613
00:30:07,320 –> 00:30:08,919
and if you had to go middle of the
614
00:30:08,919 –> 00:30:12,200
night you had to take something with you to cover it.
615
00:30:12,200 –> 00:30:14,440
Was it one family to a room or was it more than
616
00:30:14,440 –> 00:30:15,960
one family? No, no it was one family but
617
00:30:15,960 –> 00:30:18,000
that was – there was four families, four
618
00:30:18,000 –> 00:30:19,600
rooms. The whole house was four rooms, but
619
00:30:19,600 –> 00:30:22,240
separated – each one was made.
620
00:30:22,240 –> 00:30:25,919
The Polish family, they were with one big room
621
00:30:25,919 –> 00:30:28,240
in the winter time
622
00:30:28,240 –> 00:30:30,240
there was not enough to heat
623
00:30:30,240 –> 00:30:31,799
and I remember I used to read next to
624
00:30:31,799 –> 00:30:33,880
the stove, keep to the pipe, and read
625
00:30:33,880 –> 00:30:36,559
the book, it was very cold. But luckily we
626
00:30:36,559 –> 00:30:38,120
had good beddings with us
627
00:30:38,120 –> 00:30:41,000
with down, good stuff, and keep
628
00:30:41,000 –> 00:30:45,039
us warm and in fact in winter all walls
629
00:30:45,039 –> 00:30:47,760
from facing the window was all
630
00:30:47,760 –> 00:30:50,360
like was snow, it was ice
631
00:30:50,360 –> 00:30:52,559
because from the cooking there was
632
00:30:52,559 –> 00:30:55,240
frozen. Did you have electricity?
633
00:30:55,240 –> 00:30:58,799
We had electricity, only one bulb.
634
00:30:58,799 –> 00:31:01,760
Did you have other relatives?
635
00:31:01,760 –> 00:31:04,840
Oh yes, I have, yes I have my
636
00:31:04,840 –> 00:31:10,000
cousin, he was a second cousin, lived
637
00:31:10,000 –> 00:31:16,600
across the street. And we had to start to work.
638
00:31:16,600 –> 00:31:22,360
I start to work and know the machines trade, I had
639
00:31:22,360 –> 00:31:24,679
to go to school, we went a little to give
640
00:31:24,679 –> 00:31:26,639
us a little schooling and a little
641
00:31:26,639 –> 00:31:28,639
working in the beginning
642
00:31:28,639 –> 00:31:31,960
because we had to work to get
643
00:31:31,960 –> 00:31:34,480
support and get food – we had to
644
00:31:34,480 –> 00:31:35,480
work for the Germans.
645
00:31:35,480 –> 00:31:38,240
My mother used to start working
646
00:31:38,240 –> 00:31:41,320
making those big from straw shoes from
647
00:31:41,320 –> 00:31:43,360
the Germans in Russia
648
00:31:43,360 –> 00:31:45,000
standing guard, they used to have on the
649
00:31:45,000 –> 00:31:46,159
shoes the straw.
650
00:31:46,159 –> 00:31:50,440
My sister worked as secretary
651
00:31:50,440 –> 00:31:53,320
in the tailor department who used to make
652
00:31:53,320 –> 00:31:55,720
clothes for the German uniforms. In the
653
00:31:55,720 –> 00:31:58,120
ghetto, they said you can come in naked
654
00:31:58,120 –> 00:32:00,880
and come out dressed from head,
655
00:32:00,880 –> 00:32:04,279
everything, head – the hat and shoes and
656
00:32:04,279 –> 00:32:06,000
everything was done over there
657
00:32:06,000 –> 00:32:09,279
there was everything – used to be 100,000 Jews
658
00:32:09,279 –> 00:32:12,760
in the ghetto when I went. When the ghetto
659
00:32:12,760 –> 00:32:15,679
was liquidated, there was only 20,000 left
660
00:32:15,679 –> 00:32:17,880
people who were actually in Łódź. There
661
00:32:17,880 –> 00:32:21,279
was 80,000 in September 1944, but the
662
00:32:21,279 –> 00:32:24,120
other thousands came from Germany, from
663
00:32:24,120 –> 00:32:26,200
Czechoslovakia, from other small towns, they
664
00:32:26,200 –> 00:32:28,679
used to bring in. But in the four years
665
00:32:28,679 –> 00:32:32,679
actually 80,000 Jews, originally from Łódź
666
00:32:32,679 –> 00:32:35,360
Jews, died from starvation, from
667
00:32:35,360 –> 00:32:38,720
hunger, from when they took them out
668
00:32:38,720 –> 00:32:42,479
for selection, took him out to death
669
00:32:42,480 –> 00:32:45,159
or send him to work another place.
670
00:32:45,159 –> 00:32:49,240
And in the beginning,
671
00:32:49,240 –> 00:32:51,679
like every good Jewish family we had
672
00:32:51,679 –> 00:32:54,159
little gold pieces, Russian gold
673
00:32:54,159 –> 00:32:57,159
pieces, and safe over the bad
674
00:32:57,159 –> 00:33:00,480
times and then we had a Polish
675
00:33:00,480 –> 00:33:05,639
family what before the war the man, the
676
00:33:05,639 –> 00:33:08,120
woman, used to make a wash for us.
677
00:33:08,120 –> 00:33:10,080
At that time you didn’t send it out to wash
678
00:33:10,080 –> 00:33:14,320
like Chinese laundry. You had to upstairs on
679
00:33:14,320 –> 00:33:16,639
top, you have this big tub, and used
680
00:33:16,639 –> 00:33:19,679
to come a woman every month, every three
681
00:33:19,679 –> 00:33:21,279
months, I don’t know and she used to wash
682
00:33:21,279 –> 00:33:23,600
the wash and you have this partition
683
00:33:23,600 –> 00:33:25,120
over there where you hang it to dry it
684
00:33:25,120 –> 00:33:28,080
out. And the same thing was –
685
00:33:28,080 –> 00:33:31,080
for heating we used to use coal, and
686
00:33:31,080 –> 00:33:33,279
the coal was – there used to come a truck and put
687
00:33:33,279 –> 00:33:35,440
the chute down into the cellar, but the
688
00:33:35,440 –> 00:33:38,000
coal has to be brought up the four floors
689
00:33:38,000 –> 00:33:42,279
to a special – like a “komora” they used to call it
690
00:33:42,279 –> 00:33:45,440
like a room where you hold your
691
00:33:45,440 –> 00:33:48,200
provisions – apples and coals –
692
00:33:48,200 –> 00:33:49,840
and her husband used to bring the
693
00:33:49,840 –> 00:33:52,799
coals up and also before
694
00:33:52,799 –> 00:33:55,480
Passover, we used to take all the
695
00:33:55,480 –> 00:33:57,919
carpets downstairs and
696
00:33:57,919 –> 00:33:59,799
beat them up, dust them out
697
00:33:59,799 –> 00:34:01,840
it’d be like work for us
698
00:34:01,840 –> 00:34:05,279
from time to time – and those people,
699
00:34:05,279 –> 00:34:08,399
I was a kid – in the Jewish cemetery over there –
700
00:34:08,399 –> 00:34:11,639
even though it was a ghetto, there was no guard over there
701
00:34:11,639 –> 00:34:13,399
and you could could sneak out to
702
00:34:13,399 –> 00:34:15,679
the Polish side – and we had –
703
00:34:15,679 –> 00:34:18,959
make up with him, and we gave him the gold
704
00:34:18,960 –> 00:34:20,679
and they gave us a little food.
705
00:34:20,679 –> 00:34:23,719
The first two years, we managed
706
00:34:23,719 –> 00:34:25,760
a little better than the average Jew.
707
00:34:25,760 –> 00:34:29,199
Because rations were very – you get
708
00:34:29,199 –> 00:34:36,240
a bread, a kilo – actually, you got 100 grams of bread a day.
709
00:34:37,839 –> 00:34:41,879
And a little brown sugar, little
710
00:34:41,879 –> 00:34:44,560
oil. The only thing, for some reason, you
711
00:34:44,560 –> 00:34:48,239
had – I don’t know why – was they called it a
712
00:34:48,239 –> 00:34:52,000
“zast coffee” – this was actually some kind
713
00:34:52,000 –> 00:34:54,480
of wheat that was burned and was
714
00:34:54,480 –> 00:34:56,839
roasted, and you cook it with water
715
00:34:56,839 –> 00:34:58,640
and you had some brown coffee. I don’t know –
716
00:34:58,640 –> 00:35:02,280
this was in supply – it was
717
00:35:02,280 –> 00:35:04,920
in any amount you wanted, you can buy it.
718
00:35:04,920 –> 00:35:07,960
If you didn’t have enough sugar,
719
00:35:07,960 –> 00:35:11,359
you had saccharine …
720
00:35:11,520 –> 00:35:16,839
In the ghetto, the famous supplement,
721
00:35:16,839 –> 00:35:18,599
if you were lucky, we had some
722
00:35:18,599 –> 00:35:19,960
connections with the kitchen, you had
723
00:35:19,960 –> 00:35:21,040
soup kitchens over there, like in the
724
00:35:21,041 –> 00:35:24,320
… in the factory where I worked,
725
00:35:24,320 –> 00:35:28,359
you get a soup – lunchtime
726
00:35:28,359 –> 00:35:30,040
But interesting – the soup was only a
727
00:35:30,040 –> 00:35:32,280
little water and four pieces of
728
00:35:32,280 –> 00:35:35,280
potatoes – and you always used to
729
00:35:35,280 –> 00:35:36,640
be amazed
730
00:35:36,640 –> 00:35:39,880
like, she picked up the shovel –
731
00:35:39,880 –> 00:35:41,760
it was a liter – she picked up
732
00:35:41,760 –> 00:35:43,440
and you said “oh so many potatoes I’m
733
00:35:43,440 –> 00:35:46,400
lucky!” She put it in – everybody got those four,
734
00:35:46,400 –> 00:35:48,880
three pieces – and she was an expert, the
735
00:35:48,880 –> 00:35:52,359
woman, she gave – how she did it?
736
00:35:52,359 –> 00:35:55,760
But the other supplement was, if we
737
00:35:55,760 –> 00:35:57,160
were lucky, you had somebody in the
738
00:35:57,160 –> 00:35:59,920
kitchen, they give you the potato peels
739
00:35:59,920 –> 00:36:01,720
and the potato peels were so thin – the
740
00:36:01,720 –> 00:36:03,359
people who peeled the potatoes were like an
741
00:36:03,359 –> 00:36:05,400
artist – you wouldn’t believe – but even you
742
00:36:05,400 –> 00:36:07,400
get a kilo or two of the potato peels,
743
00:36:07,400 –> 00:36:09,240
you put it through the grinding machine
744
00:36:09,240 –> 00:36:12,960
and you took the coffee,
745
00:36:12,960 –> 00:36:15,480
the wheat, the coffee, whatever you had, you
746
00:36:15,480 –> 00:36:17,960
cooked it, and you throw the water out
747
00:36:17,960 –> 00:36:20,160
because it was bitter and you took with
748
00:36:20,160 –> 00:36:22,599
the potato peels – you mixed together – you
749
00:36:22,599 –> 00:36:25,440
put a little oil, a little saccharine in it
750
00:36:25,440 –> 00:36:28,079
and you put a little
751
00:36:28,079 –> 00:36:32,040
flour, whatever you have, and you cooked it all
752
00:36:32,040 –> 00:36:34,040
night in another pot and in the
753
00:36:34,040 –> 00:36:37,400
morning, when it was cooled off, it was like a cake.
754
00:36:37,400 –> 00:36:40,640
That’s what you took as a supplement.
755
00:36:40,640 –> 00:36:43,839
Did it have any taste to it?
756
00:36:43,839 –> 00:36:46,400
Can’t imagine – no talk about taste.
757
00:36:46,400 –> 00:36:50,400
The ration was – then me and my mother –
758
00:36:50,400 –> 00:36:56,040
in 1943 especially – all the people –
759
00:36:56,040 –> 00:36:58,400
they got all …
760
00:36:58,400 –> 00:37:01,400
And they had some from the
761
00:37:01,400 –> 00:37:03,720
black market over there – they had some –
762
00:37:03,720 –> 00:37:06,480
they called it Vigantol, some kind of fish oil, I don’t
763
00:37:06,480 –> 00:37:08,359
know – it was very expensive to get …
764
00:37:13,880 –> 00:37:16,040
You have to have a little
765
00:37:16,040 –> 00:37:17,200
connection – if you have a little
766
00:37:17,200 –> 00:37:19,960
connection, like I had, somebody
767
00:37:19,960 –> 00:37:23,640
who works – he was a policeman in a
768
00:37:23,640 –> 00:37:25,560
bakery – you have special
769
00:37:25,560 –> 00:37:28,000
police – Sonderpolizei – who used to keep on
770
00:37:28,000 –> 00:37:32,160
the bakeries over there – not to steal – and
771
00:37:32,160 –> 00:37:34,040
they had a little garden and I used to
772
00:37:34,040 –> 00:37:36,359
go in the garden over there and help him.
773
00:37:36,359 –> 00:37:38,800
They give me some pieces of bread
774
00:37:38,800 –> 00:37:42,040
before I went to work.
775
00:37:42,040 –> 00:37:44,160
You have to have connection – after you used
776
00:37:44,160 –> 00:37:46,319
to get vegetables, sometimes you
777
00:37:46,319 –> 00:37:48,440
used to have potatoes or radish, but
778
00:37:48,440 –> 00:37:50,000
everything was frozen for some reason.
779
00:37:50,000 –> 00:37:51,500
Whatever was frozen – not good –
780
00:37:51,501 –> 00:37:52,990
they sent to the Jews in the ghetto.
781
00:37:53,000 –> 00:37:54,200
Was there anybody there
782
00:37:54,200 –> 00:37:56,200
who knew your father, who was able maybe
783
00:37:56,200 –> 00:37:58,720
to help you or anything like that?
784
00:37:58,720 –> 00:38:01,640
What do you mean my father?
785
00:38:01,640 –> 00:38:03,760
Who knew him when he was a druggist?
786
00:38:03,760 –> 00:38:06,359
Yes, that’s what I’m telling you –
787
00:38:06,359 –> 00:38:08,160
We had some customers,
788
00:38:08,160 –> 00:38:10,520
they were prominent before the war,
789
00:38:10,520 –> 00:38:12,839
they were also prominent in the ghetto.
790
00:38:12,839 –> 00:38:15,440
Because the people of
791
00:38:15,440 –> 00:38:18,599
cultivated, educated people.
792
00:38:18,599 –> 00:38:21,160
I remember one was named Sztewi – he helped my
793
00:38:21,160 –> 00:38:25,440
mother to get the work.
794
00:38:25,520 –> 00:38:28,880
The only thing – what you had to do
795
00:38:28,880 –> 00:38:32,119
was they pulled out all the bricks and
796
00:38:32,119 –> 00:38:33,839
you started your own garden, like in
797
00:38:33,839 –> 00:38:36,000
England, the Victory Gardens – you
798
00:38:36,000 –> 00:38:38,800
grow on your own vegetables.
799
00:38:38,800 –> 00:38:43,599
You grow anything, like radish, you had
800
00:38:43,599 –> 00:38:46,920
the radish has a big leaf – you eat
801
00:38:46,920 –> 00:38:48,880
the leaf too. You put it in water, you
802
00:38:48,880 –> 00:38:51,240
take the bitterness out, and you make
803
00:38:51,240 –> 00:38:53,480
like spinach – you wouldn’t believe.
804
00:38:53,480 –> 00:38:57,560
Coal – I remember I worked
805
00:38:57,560 –> 00:38:59,520
at that time, but I worked like a night
806
00:38:59,520 –> 00:39:02,480
shift, or second shift, we had over there
807
00:39:02,480 –> 00:39:03,880
before the war they used to take from
808
00:39:03,880 –> 00:39:06,119
the factories, it used to be fired – the ovens –
809
00:39:06,119 –> 00:39:08,040
used to be fired by coal. They used to collect all
810
00:39:08,040 –> 00:39:11,079
the residue and throw it over in the fields.
811
00:39:11,079 –> 00:39:12,880
It was in the ghetto – we used to go
812
00:39:12,880 –> 00:39:15,640
as kids over there and and dig and find
813
00:39:15,640 –> 00:39:18,839
pieces of coal and burn it.
814
00:39:18,839 –> 00:39:22,960
The ingenuity – it’s impossible to even imagine.
815
00:39:22,960 –> 00:39:26,160
You had to. You had to. But same thing, the
816
00:39:26,160 –> 00:39:28,959
big eaters, they starved – they died first.
817
00:39:28,960 –> 00:39:30,560
The strong, the big,
818
00:39:30,560 –> 00:39:32,920
the people – I was always – my
819
00:39:32,920 –> 00:39:34,839
mother always complained how such a bad
820
00:39:34,839 –> 00:39:37,040
eater I was – and I went for three
821
00:39:37,040 –> 00:39:39,880
months vacation – I gained 100 grams.
822
00:39:39,880 –> 00:39:43,680
I was always a skinny kid but I
823
00:39:43,680 –> 00:39:47,799
remember they said that the strong people
824
00:39:47,800 –> 00:39:51,560
in the Jewish population all died first because
825
00:39:51,560 –> 00:39:54,399
they just starved to death – there was no food.
826
00:39:54,400 –> 00:39:58,599
They gave me from time to time …
827
00:40:00,760 –> 00:40:03,560
How did your mother do?
828
00:40:03,560 –> 00:40:07,640
My mother – I told you – she worked and
829
00:40:07,640 –> 00:40:11,160
we came home – and we divide the
830
00:40:11,160 –> 00:40:15,000
food – and make sure that at the end of
831
00:40:15,000 –> 00:40:19,680
the week, the bread was gone.
832
00:40:19,960 –> 00:40:22,760
What can I tell you?
833
00:40:22,760 –> 00:40:27,640
We had a big mischief because they had
834
00:40:27,640 –> 00:40:30,990
the names of all the middle class and wealthy Jews –
835
00:40:30,991 –> 00:40:35,039
there was a Kripo – a Kriminalpolizei – in Łódź
836
00:40:35,040 –> 00:40:38,440
and the main honcho, his name was Suder.
837
00:40:38,440 –> 00:40:41,599
And he grew with Jews together –
838
00:40:41,599 –> 00:40:43,599
he spoke with Jews like a Jew – you wouldn’t
839
00:40:43,599 –> 00:40:45,240
even believe – he used to go in the ghetto
840
00:40:45,240 –> 00:40:49,760
and ask them in Jewish, the people,
841
00:40:49,760 –> 00:40:53,800
“When is Hitler going be dead?”
842
00:40:53,801 –> 00:40:56,960
“When do you think those goddamn Germans are going to lose the war?”
843
00:40:56,960 –> 00:40:58,680
Some people didn’t know, it might get
844
00:40:58,680 –> 00:41:02,160
them involved, they arrest them.
845
00:41:02,160 –> 00:41:05,440
And they arrested my mother too.
846
00:41:05,440 –> 00:41:08,119
And she said she was over there for
847
00:41:08,119 –> 00:41:10,800
three weeks, she came back a broken woman
848
00:41:10,800 –> 00:41:13,400
completely. Not only mentally, but
849
00:41:13,400 –> 00:41:15,319
physically, you wouldn’t recognize her. She lost
850
00:41:15,319 –> 00:41:18,160
a tremendous amount of weight – besides
851
00:41:18,160 –> 00:41:21,319
what she already was – and she said
852
00:41:21,319 –> 00:41:23,640
he came to her and he had a
853
00:41:23,640 –> 00:41:26,319
…
854
00:41:26,319 –> 00:41:28,060
Yes, and slapped her and beat her up, and said
855
00:41:28,061 –> 00:41:30,059
where do you have the “harter” and the “vaykhe”
856
00:41:30,060 –> 00:41:36,079
“Harter” was hard dollars, coin dollars, “vaykhe” is paper money.
857
00:41:36,079 –> 00:41:38,040
He knows all the Jewish expressions.
858
00:41:38,040 –> 00:41:40,760
“I know you have” and my mother
859
00:41:40,760 –> 00:41:41,839
said “I have nothing”.
860
00:41:41,839 –> 00:41:45,319
They came to my house, to our
861
00:41:45,319 –> 00:41:48,280
house, and they took my –
862
00:41:48,280 –> 00:41:50,920
called my sister out from where she
863
00:41:50,920 –> 00:41:52,520
was and and they looked the house and
864
00:41:52,520 –> 00:41:55,760
we had a scale home from brass –
865
00:41:55,760 –> 00:41:58,160
they took this – and and they found a golden
866
00:41:58,160 –> 00:42:00,800
ring, but it was missing – my sister had a ring
867
00:42:00,800 –> 00:42:03,079
with a ruby in it – and they found
868
00:42:03,079 –> 00:42:04,880
the ruby was misplaced some place and
869
00:42:04,880 –> 00:42:08,200
she didn’t know. And he said “where is
870
00:42:08,200 –> 00:42:10,920
the diamond?” – my mother says “no diamond, it was
871
00:42:10,920 –> 00:42:14,880
a cheap ruby” – luckily, they found it – otherwise
872
00:42:14,880 –> 00:42:18,440
you never know. But this was very, very and she
873
00:42:18,440 –> 00:42:20,800
never really recuperated after that. She was
874
00:42:20,800 –> 00:42:22,760
a long time, she couldn’t go to work, she
875
00:42:22,760 –> 00:42:27,920
had to stay in bed, and she became very bad.
876
00:42:27,920 –> 00:42:32,760
And then in 1942, there was a big “Gehsperre” they called it
877
00:42:32,760 –> 00:42:36,400
there was a big – they took the people, they
878
00:42:36,400 –> 00:42:39,920
closed up each part of the
879
00:42:39,920 –> 00:42:43,440
town, and they selected the people –
880
00:42:43,440 –> 00:42:47,720
who has to live and who has to go.
881
00:42:47,720 –> 00:42:51,480
I had an aunt and my uncle he
882
00:42:51,480 –> 00:42:54,680
was sent out before, years before, he was
883
00:42:54,680 –> 00:42:57,880
sent out for work, another camp,
884
00:42:57,880 –> 00:42:59,680
he never came back, but she stayed
885
00:42:59,680 –> 00:43:04,520
with a small child and the version, the rumor was –
886
00:43:04,520 –> 00:43:09,520
and I went over there to bring it over to us
887
00:43:09,520 –> 00:43:12,559
and she saw the Germans coming, she just
888
00:43:12,559 –> 00:43:15,880
jumped from – with the child – from
889
00:43:15,880 –> 00:43:18,240
I don’t know how many stories and
890
00:43:18,240 –> 00:43:20,079
she killed herself.
891
00:43:20,079 –> 00:43:23,480
They came to us too and my
892
00:43:23,480 –> 00:43:27,480
mother, my sister amazingly looked very
893
00:43:27,480 –> 00:43:29,599
well – she was a young girl, 18,
894
00:43:29,599 –> 00:43:32,280
19, 20 – she kept herself very
895
00:43:32,280 –> 00:43:34,240
good, even with that little food, what she had.
896
00:43:34,240 –> 00:43:37,160
And I and my sister we pass and my
897
00:43:37,160 –> 00:43:40,599
mother was arrested and she was – should
898
00:43:40,599 –> 00:43:45,280
be sent out. But I tell you the mensch, Sztewi, was
899
00:43:45,280 –> 00:43:49,040
our customer and a friend of ours.
900
00:43:49,040 –> 00:43:50,440
When you had somebody there,
901
00:43:50,440 –> 00:43:53,400
in the Polish, not German,
902
00:43:53,400 –> 00:43:57,839
but in the Polish, Jewish police, they had a
903
00:43:57,839 –> 00:43:59,400
place where they held the people
904
00:43:59,400 –> 00:44:02,559
and he came and for some reason they released my
905
00:44:02,559 –> 00:44:04,119
mother back – and she survived.
906
00:44:04,119 –> 00:44:06,240
That was a very bad time
907
00:44:06,240 –> 00:44:08,699
because we didn’t get nothing – no food,
908
00:44:08,700 –> 00:44:11,640
we shouldn’t even go out in the street.
909
00:44:11,640 –> 00:44:14,200
But what I had over there, the place
910
00:44:14,200 –> 00:44:16,960
where I lived, in Łódź, was the
911
00:44:16,960 –> 00:44:20,520
outskirts of the city and we have over
912
00:44:20,520 –> 00:44:23,720
there the ghetto administration, used to raise
913
00:44:23,720 –> 00:44:28,960
over there vegetables, potatoes, carrots.
914
00:44:28,960 –> 00:44:31,540
And I was standing in the window
915
00:44:31,541 –> 00:44:36,119
and people are taking from the fields and I
916
00:44:36,119 –> 00:44:40,640
went also, and I brought a little food in
917
00:44:40,640 –> 00:44:44,440
But this was the end – my mother,
918
00:44:44,440 –> 00:44:47,400
she was released and they came to
919
00:44:47,400 –> 00:44:49,800
our thing and we had everything prepared
920
00:44:49,800 –> 00:44:52,359
and we waited downstairs, we went in
921
00:44:52,359 –> 00:44:54,319
hiding over there in the fields.
922
00:44:54,319 –> 00:44:59,079
And we hope maybe we survive,
923
00:44:59,079 –> 00:45:02,200
we stay, but we were not arrested even by –
924
00:45:02,200 –> 00:45:05,720
we were arrested by the German gendarmerie,
925
00:45:05,720 –> 00:45:08,640
military personnel, took care
926
00:45:08,640 –> 00:45:11,800
besides the SS, and they took us out and
927
00:45:11,800 –> 00:45:14,480
he says – we’re asking “can we, go home?”
928
00:45:14,480 –> 00:45:17,880
And take our things, go home and we
929
00:45:17,880 –> 00:45:21,160
take our rucksack, the backpack
930
00:45:21,160 –> 00:45:22,520
and that’s it.
931
00:45:22,520 –> 00:45:26,539
We came, he said like Biebow before –
932
00:45:26,540 –> 00:45:30,199
you’re going to be – don’t worry
933
00:45:30,200 –> 00:45:32,400
the Russians were only –
934
00:45:32,400 –> 00:45:35,760
in September, I told you, in August
935
00:45:35,760 –> 00:45:38,400
1944, when the Russian used to stand 100
936
00:45:38,400 –> 00:45:40,839
kilometers from the Vistula and they stopped
937
00:45:40,839 –> 00:45:42,920
the offensive and he says “the Russians
938
00:45:42,920 –> 00:45:45,119
are going to kill you – you’ll work for
939
00:45:45,119 –> 00:45:47,079
the German government – and now we’re
940
00:45:47,079 –> 00:45:48,839
going to bring you back to Germany” he says
941
00:45:48,839 –> 00:45:50,960
“nothing is going to happen, we want to
942
00:45:50,960 –> 00:45:54,040
protect your life – take big pots” he says
943
00:45:54,040 –> 00:45:56,599
and “take only what you need” but
944
00:45:56,599 –> 00:45:58,839
“take big pots and we’ll go over there, we
945
00:45:58,839 –> 00:46:00,920
have plenty of food, now the good times
946
00:46:00,920 –> 00:46:03,520
are here” and that’s what he believes – he
947
00:46:03,520 –> 00:46:05,400
took us to the station, he gave us only
948
00:46:05,400 –> 00:46:08,880
a loaf bread and a little sugar
949
00:46:08,880 –> 00:46:10,760
and, like I told you, they give for some
950
00:46:10,760 –> 00:46:14,599
reason everybody a head of cabbage.
951
00:46:14,599 –> 00:46:17,119
People were so hungry,
952
00:46:17,119 –> 00:46:18,520
they ate everything, but they save like –
953
00:46:18,520 –> 00:46:20,079
hungry people always save the
954
00:46:20,079 –> 00:46:23,119
bread and eat the cabbage and
955
00:46:23,119 –> 00:46:25,559
they took us – 50, 40 people
956
00:46:25,559 –> 00:46:28,480
in those cattle, they called it
957
00:46:28,480 –> 00:46:31,280
the cattle train – closed, only the small windows
958
00:46:31,280 –> 00:46:35,519
with one pile over there – it was unbearable
959
00:46:35,520 –> 00:46:36,680
what was going on
960
00:46:36,680 –> 00:46:41,200
people, so stomach, used to throw out,
961
00:46:41,200 –> 00:46:43,920
so they grab the food, they try to eat,
962
00:46:43,920 –> 00:46:45,240
and everything.
963
00:46:45,240 –> 00:46:48,760
We lined up one day we came
964
00:46:48,760 –> 00:46:51,640
instead of jamming, and the good life,
965
00:46:51,640 –> 00:46:55,559
and the big pots, we wind up in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
966
00:46:55,559 –> 00:46:58,479
How long did you travel from Łódź to Auschwitz?
967
00:46:58,480 –> 00:47:00,960
I don’t know, maybe two, three days
968
00:47:00,960 –> 00:47:03,880
In total darkness with just that
969
00:47:03,880 –> 00:47:06,480
little bit of light? Yeah, from the small
970
00:47:06,480 –> 00:47:10,000
window and we had the light.
971
00:47:10,680 –> 00:47:15,440
Yeah. And that’s it, in Auschwitz,
972
00:47:15,440 –> 00:47:18,079
I came to Birkenau.
973
00:47:20,599 –> 00:47:23,680
There were many “Häftling” it was called,
974
00:47:23,680 –> 00:47:26,160
prisoners, they took us out and
975
00:47:26,160 –> 00:47:27,839
the SS was standing there – it was the middle of the night
976
00:47:27,839 –> 00:47:33,280
big lights, projectors, and German dogs – the SS
977
00:47:33,280 –> 00:47:37,119
with the machine guns and everything – and the
978
00:47:37,119 –> 00:47:41,520
prisoners, they call them “Kanada”, used to call those prisoners.
979
00:47:41,520 –> 00:47:44,319
They had the better prison, better treatment
980
00:47:44,319 –> 00:47:46,040
they should take from the people,
981
00:47:46,040 –> 00:47:47,680
income people, throw all the
982
00:47:47,680 –> 00:47:50,880
people’s thing’s out and everything – and they
983
00:47:50,880 –> 00:47:54,040
separated myself from my mother
984
00:47:54,040 –> 00:47:57,920
and my sister. Men here, women here.
985
00:47:57,920 –> 00:48:00,000
Auschwitz over there, in Birkenau there
986
00:48:00,000 –> 00:48:02,839
used to be the Polish cavalry used to
987
00:48:02,839 –> 00:48:04,960
hold the horses, used to be long barracks
988
00:48:04,960 –> 00:48:06,359
in the middle of the barrack used to be
989
00:48:06,359 –> 00:48:08,760
like from cement
990
00:48:08,760 –> 00:48:10,920
with hooks, where they tie the horses
991
00:48:10,920 –> 00:48:13,920
put the … over there. And they brought
992
00:48:13,920 –> 00:48:16,319
all of us – this was the last time I
993
00:48:16,319 –> 00:48:19,119
saw my parent – my mother and my sister.
994
00:48:19,119 –> 00:48:21,400
And they brought us in.
995
00:48:21,400 –> 00:48:25,319
And the SS used to go around –
996
00:48:25,319 –> 00:48:27,200
everything give up – you have gold, you have
997
00:48:27,200 –> 00:48:30,000
watches, you have fountain pens,
998
00:48:30,000 –> 00:48:33,960
everything give them away. I didn’t have nothing.
999
00:48:33,961 –> 00:48:39,000
I just have nothing to give. I was a kid. I was,
1000
00:48:39,000 –> 00:48:42,800
at that time, I was 16 years old, 17
1001
00:48:42,800 –> 00:48:45,160
years old. I looked like 14. I always looked
1002
00:48:45,160 –> 00:48:47,760
younger than I was actually, my age.
1003
00:48:47,760 –> 00:48:50,079
I was skinny – I could go
1004
00:48:50,079 –> 00:48:52,079
through the hole of a needle
1005
00:48:52,079 –> 00:48:55,799
through – the four years of ghetto.
1006
00:48:55,799 –> 00:48:57,480
I can say one thing.
1007
00:48:57,480 –> 00:49:00,059
I was never sick one day in the ghetto.
1008
00:49:00,060 –> 00:49:03,480
People die from typhus, dysentery, these things you can’t even
1009
00:49:03,480 –> 00:49:07,200
believe. I was never sick. Not even a cold.
1010
00:49:07,200 –> 00:49:09,799
Nobody in our family, actually, was sick.
1011
00:49:11,040 –> 00:49:14,559
That maybe helped us because
1012
00:49:14,559 –> 00:49:16,920
if you were sick and you were
1013
00:49:16,920 –> 00:49:18,960
deteriorated it was always a …
1014
00:49:18,960 –> 00:49:20,920
You couldn’t survive. People just died in
1015
00:49:20,920 –> 00:49:22,799
the street. You walked over in the
1016
00:49:22,799 –> 00:49:28,000
street in the ghetto and just picked them up.
1017
00:49:28,200 –> 00:49:30,799
We came over there and after they took
1018
00:49:30,799 –> 00:49:32,960
some prisoners and started to beat them up.
1019
00:49:32,960 –> 00:49:35,200
“Oh, he hid a diamond in his rectum”
1020
00:49:35,200 –> 00:49:39,520
“We know you have diamonds in your rectum”
1021
00:49:39,520 –> 00:49:42,839
They used to just pick up people and beat them up.
1022
00:49:42,839 –> 00:49:46,958
After, they put us three days on “Appell”
1023
00:49:46,959 –> 00:49:48,359
I don’t know how many,
1024
00:49:48,359 –> 00:49:50,119
a thousand, was over there.
1025
00:49:50,119 –> 00:49:53,879
We stood for three days. We didn’t get any food, nothing.
1026
00:49:53,880 –> 00:49:56,720
Everybody who fell down – that’s it.
1027
00:49:56,720 –> 00:50:00,359
You weren’t allowed even to help him.
1028
00:50:00,440 –> 00:50:04,440
That’s it. They counted us. They count,
1029
00:50:04,440 –> 00:50:06,799
and count, and count, and for some reason
1030
00:50:06,799 –> 00:50:09,119
if two are missing, they count again,
1031
00:50:09,119 –> 00:50:11,040
they count again, they count again. It was
1032
00:50:11,040 –> 00:50:13,240
day and night, and day and night – I was
1033
00:50:13,240 –> 00:50:14,960
standing over there and they count and
1034
00:50:14,960 –> 00:50:17,640
that was September. September in Poland,
1035
00:50:17,640 –> 00:50:23,359
the beginning of September gets very cool.
1036
00:50:23,359 –> 00:50:29,359
After, they put us in Barrack #2, I remember.
1037
00:50:29,359 –> 00:50:32,520
They put all the people on the
1038
00:50:32,520 –> 00:50:35,559
right side. There was a stone floor.
1039
00:50:35,559 –> 00:50:39,000
Everybody on the right side – and they cover us with those big
1040
00:50:39,000 –> 00:50:46,520
like you cover horses – big, big blankets, not for people.
1041
00:50:46,520 –> 00:50:49,319
And can you imagine, in September,
1042
00:50:49,319 –> 00:50:57,040
you sleep on a wood floor and the wake up was 5:00
1043
00:50:57,040 –> 00:50:59,319
in the morning and everybody has to go
1044
00:50:59,319 –> 00:51:01,440
people couldn’t go to the bathroom
1045
00:51:01,440 –> 00:51:03,119
in the night you’re not allowed
1046
00:51:03,119 –> 00:51:05,440
to leave the barrack because they’d shoot you
1047
00:51:05,440 –> 00:51:07,559
imagine what was going on over there
1048
00:51:07,559 –> 00:51:10,160
they defecated, they urinated, everything
1049
00:51:10,160 –> 00:51:11,040
under themselves.
1050
00:51:11,040 –> 00:51:14,160
And in the morning, who could,
1051
00:51:14,160 –> 00:51:16,079
everybody was in a big barrack
1052
00:51:16,079 –> 00:51:20,799
with the men’s room over there.
1053
00:51:20,799 –> 00:51:23,960
Did you have thoughts at that time
1054
00:51:23,960 –> 00:51:26,319
that you were determined to survive?
1055
00:51:26,319 –> 00:51:28,200
Or didn’t you? That’s what I’ll tell you.
1056
00:51:28,200 –> 00:51:30,000
I was always determined to survive.
1057
00:51:30,000 –> 00:51:31,880
I was like a ghetto kid.
1058
00:51:31,880 –> 00:51:34,760
I was ghetto smart, street smart.
1059
00:51:34,760 –> 00:51:37,559
Four years you – I had a friend over there
1060
00:51:37,559 –> 00:51:39,640
a kid who I worked with, was sitting
1061
00:51:39,640 –> 00:51:43,280
over there. Now, what I’ll tell you, the next day
1062
00:51:43,280 –> 00:51:45,920
they gave us – and this is the psychology of the
1063
00:51:45,920 –> 00:51:49,720
Germans. They gave us food for the first time.
1064
00:51:49,720 –> 00:51:53,480
They brought big vats with hot soup,
1065
00:51:53,480 –> 00:51:56,799
big vat, and they took like a washing basin,
1066
00:51:56,799 –> 00:51:59,000
the small washing basin, one, two, three,
1067
00:51:59,000 –> 00:52:02,599
four people. No fork, no spoon, no nothing.
1068
00:52:02,599 –> 00:52:05,119
People didn’t eat for three days, they gave you
1069
00:52:05,119 –> 00:52:08,799
here – four people boom, boom, boom – eat.
1070
00:52:08,799 –> 00:52:14,200
Can you imagine – how can you eat hot soup without having
1071
00:52:14,200 –> 00:52:19,240
no spoon, no fork, and 400 people fighting over there.
1072
00:52:20,960 –> 00:52:23,680
I don’t know, if I look back,
1073
00:52:23,680 –> 00:52:25,799
how I survived, I don’t know. Only a will.
1074
00:52:25,799 –> 00:52:28,040
You had to have the will to survive. I’ll tell you about
1075
00:52:28,040 –> 00:52:29,520
the kid who was sitting next to me and
1076
00:52:29,520 –> 00:52:33,119
he says “Szalek,” my name in Polish was Szalek.
1077
00:52:33,119 –> 00:52:36,400
“We’re not going to survive it.”
1078
00:52:36,400 –> 00:52:37,920
You stop talking like that – you’re a
1079
00:52:37,920 –> 00:52:40,240
young kid, you’re only 17 years old.
1080
00:52:40,240 –> 00:52:42,559
You have old men here who want to live.
1081
00:52:42,559 –> 00:52:44,319
You have all your life, the war is
1082
00:52:44,319 –> 00:52:46,200
going to end, we’re going to survive,
1083
00:52:46,200 –> 00:52:48,119
you have to be strong.
1084
00:52:48,120 –> 00:52:50,640
The next day, I looked at him, he was
1085
00:52:50,640 –> 00:52:54,240
dead. Because the will was gone.
1086
00:52:54,240 –> 00:52:56,280
He said “I want to be dead, I want to die”
1087
00:52:56,280 –> 00:52:59,400
and he died without even somebody touching him.
1088
00:52:59,400 –> 00:53:01,880
But, like in any place, you have
1089
00:53:01,880 –> 00:53:05,119
to find a way. There was across
1090
00:53:05,119 –> 00:53:08,880
women, Russian women prisoners
1091
00:53:08,880 –> 00:53:11,400
over there and I saw there was a piece of
1092
00:53:11,400 –> 00:53:12,880
glass and I said to the
1093
00:53:12,880 –> 00:53:15,920
women – during the day in Auschwitz, in Birkenau,
1094
00:53:15,920 –> 00:53:18,359
you didn’t do nothing. That was like a
1095
00:53:18,359 –> 00:53:21,760
death camp. Over there in Birkenau
1096
00:53:21,760 –> 00:53:23,359
they sent you only to
1097
00:53:23,359 –> 00:53:25,440
the crematoriums or they sent you out to work.
1098
00:53:25,440 –> 00:53:26,960
But meantime we just sat over there
1099
00:53:26,960 –> 00:53:28,400
around, just doing nothing, just sitting
1100
00:53:28,400 –> 00:53:30,680
and waiting for the
1101
00:53:30,680 –> 00:53:32,799
piece of bread and a little soup or you
1102
00:53:32,799 –> 00:53:35,559
got a little coffee, watered, and she gave
1103
00:53:35,559 –> 00:53:37,720
me, I found a piece of wood,
1104
00:53:37,720 –> 00:53:41,200
and I was already a skilled machinist after four
1105
00:53:41,200 –> 00:53:44,000
years – I made from the wood and a
1106
00:53:44,000 –> 00:53:46,079
piece of glass, I made like a spoon
1107
00:53:46,079 –> 00:53:47,920
with a sharp point on the other side
1108
00:53:47,920 –> 00:53:49,960
that I can – if they give the four people
1109
00:53:49,960 –> 00:53:51,960
the piece of – I have something to
1110
00:53:51,960 –> 00:53:54,000
eat with. I can help myself.
1111
00:53:54,000 –> 00:53:57,720
And the other trick was to get at
1112
00:53:57,720 –> 00:54:00,839
2:00, they used to call “hey, four people,
1113
00:54:00,839 –> 00:54:04,040
eight people, 10 people, 12 people bread, bread”
1114
00:54:04,040 –> 00:54:06,920
Bring the bread from the
1115
00:54:06,920 –> 00:54:10,000
the baker over there, from the magazine.
1116
00:54:10,000 –> 00:54:12,119
We used to get each, four people, used to get
1117
00:54:12,119 –> 00:54:14,400
a blanket, and used to hold the
1118
00:54:14,400 –> 00:54:15,720
edge, and used to go over there and pick
1119
00:54:15,720 –> 00:54:18,079
up the bread. The bread was mostly –
1120
00:54:18,079 –> 00:54:22,240
they throw the bread, it used to fall apart.
1121
00:54:22,240 –> 00:54:24,720
What I used to do, and I used to
1122
00:54:24,720 –> 00:54:26,960
come to the block, everybody has the same
1123
00:54:26,960 –> 00:54:30,559
face – how can you see who – I used to grab a
1124
00:54:30,559 –> 00:54:33,359
piece and just run away.
1125
00:54:33,359 –> 00:54:35,440
Take my chance. You had to do something.
1126
00:54:35,440 –> 00:54:39,559
Even that kid, you had to do something.
1127
00:54:39,559 –> 00:54:41,599
Mr. Biezunski, we’re going to have to pause now and
1128
00:54:41,599 –> 00:54:43,000
we’ll take a break and then we’ll get
1129
00:54:43,000 –> 00:54:47,599
back to your story. Okay. Thank you.
1130
00:54:56,599 –> 00:54:59,720
Mr. Biezunski, we would like to go back to an
1131
00:54:59,720 –> 00:55:02,000
earlier part of your life when you were
1132
00:55:02,000 –> 00:55:04,040
involved in a strike in a metal
1133
00:55:04,040 –> 00:55:06,559
working factory in Łódź.
1134
00:55:06,559 –> 00:55:09,920
Yes, there was a time, where we worked
1135
00:55:09,920 –> 00:55:12,359
and there was some disapproval about the
1136
00:55:12,359 –> 00:55:16,000
second, the night shift, and most of the workers used
1137
00:55:16,000 –> 00:55:20,040
to be young boys like myself. And we
1138
00:55:20,040 –> 00:55:22,240
stood up with the fellows and we decide that
1139
00:55:22,240 –> 00:55:24,039
the other shift, they’re going to strike
1140
00:55:24,039 –> 00:55:26,079
and to support the other people
1141
00:55:26,079 –> 00:55:30,160
involved in the conflict.
1142
00:55:30,160 –> 00:55:33,039
Being young we didn’t really understand
1143
00:55:33,039 –> 00:55:34,400
the consequences, what a
1144
00:55:34,400 –> 00:55:36,640
strike means in the German occupation.
1145
00:55:36,640 –> 00:55:40,480
But the ghetto was run
1146
00:55:40,480 –> 00:55:44,319
by Jewish police and it was a Jewish
1147
00:55:44,440 –> 00:55:47,400
“Ältester”, like the head of the
1148
00:55:47,400 –> 00:55:51,039
community. His name was Chaim Rumkowski.
1149
00:55:51,039 –> 00:55:54,440
And actually police came and
1150
00:55:54,440 –> 00:55:57,599
arrested all of us and brought us
1151
00:55:57,599 –> 00:56:01,119
to the police station, and he came over there,
1152
00:56:01,119 –> 00:56:03,880
and talked to us, and explained
1153
00:56:03,880 –> 00:56:07,039
that we are lucky that the Germans, the Gestapo,
1154
00:56:07,039 –> 00:56:10,240
didn’t get wind of it because we
1155
00:56:10,240 –> 00:56:13,359
might be all shot and that was really true
1156
00:56:13,359 –> 00:56:16,760
And we decide to give it up
1157
00:56:16,760 –> 00:56:19,160
and go back to work and settle
1158
00:56:19,160 –> 00:56:23,640
the matter. But this was
1159
00:56:23,640 –> 00:56:26,920
really a moment where we were really –
1160
00:56:26,920 –> 00:56:29,640
if the Germans found out about it, there
1161
00:56:29,640 –> 00:56:31,240
was no question, they would’ve taken us out
1162
00:56:31,240 –> 00:56:34,599
over there to the square and shot or
1163
00:56:34,599 –> 00:56:38,000
hanged like they did with other people.
1164
00:56:38,000 –> 00:56:40,280
So this was the only time that
1165
00:56:40,280 –> 00:56:41,760
you were involved in any type of
1166
00:56:41,760 –> 00:56:44,319
resistance? Yeah. Is that true? There was
1167
00:56:44,319 –> 00:56:47,559
no resistance because, like I told you,
1168
00:56:47,559 –> 00:56:49,880
because there was no way to resist.
1169
00:56:49,880 –> 00:56:52,240
We didn’t have any weapons. We were
1170
00:56:52,240 –> 00:56:54,240
surrounded by a hostile Polish
1171
00:56:54,240 –> 00:56:56,240
population where they just
1172
00:56:56,240 –> 00:56:58,280
laughed at us through the – we had
1173
00:56:58,280 –> 00:57:01,480
like a – when I walked to work I walked along
1174
00:57:01,480 –> 00:57:03,839
the street and all the street there was
1175
00:57:03,839 –> 00:57:10,440
a fence with steel wires
1176
00:57:10,440 –> 00:57:13,480
a wooden fence, and each
1177
00:57:13,480 –> 00:57:16,839
few hundred meters you had a guard
1178
00:57:16,839 –> 00:57:20,200
the German … but the trolley used to go
1179
00:57:20,200 –> 00:57:22,760
over there and the Poles used to travel
1180
00:57:22,760 –> 00:57:27,640
through the trolley, through the ghetto,
1181
00:57:27,641 –> 00:57:31,000
they used to laugh at us, make a sign, and
1182
00:57:31,000 –> 00:57:32,720
show like that, and you cut your throat.
1183
00:57:32,720 –> 00:57:35,680
The Jew in Poland has
1184
00:57:35,680 –> 00:57:38,599
no protection at all. There wasn’t a
1185
00:57:38,599 –> 00:57:40,640
concentration camp – it was known that
1186
00:57:40,640 –> 00:57:45,119
if you escape you have no way to
1187
00:57:45,119 –> 00:57:47,119
survive only if you really have somebody
1188
00:57:47,119 –> 00:57:49,760
you know somebody who really wants
1189
00:57:49,760 –> 00:57:52,520
to help you out. If you don’t have
1190
00:57:52,520 –> 00:57:55,240
the means to pay him for it in gold or
1191
00:57:55,240 –> 00:57:57,200
diamonds, they’re not going to do it because
1192
00:57:57,200 –> 00:57:59,160
the Germans offered them for each Jewish head
1193
00:57:59,160 –> 00:58:02,520
a kilo of sugar and a bottle of vodka.
1194
00:58:02,520 –> 00:58:04,880
That was the price, the worth of a
1195
00:58:04,880 –> 00:58:09,280
Jewish life. That was after hundreds
1196
00:58:09,280 –> 00:58:11,440
of hundred of years which the Jews
1197
00:58:11,440 –> 00:58:14,079
gave to Poland and did for Poland and
1198
00:58:14,079 –> 00:58:17,640
fought for Poland. That’s how the Polish
1199
00:58:17,640 –> 00:58:21,359
population paid them back in a time of need.
1200
00:58:21,359 –> 00:58:23,240
They just deserted the Jews.
1201
00:58:23,240 –> 00:58:25,720
Not only they deserted the Jews,
1202
00:58:25,720 –> 00:58:27,520
they were happy to get rid of them
1203
00:58:27,520 –> 00:58:29,920
because they took their houses, they took
1204
00:58:29,920 –> 00:58:32,880
their goods, they took their businesses,
1205
00:58:32,880 –> 00:58:37,640
they took everything. And if you saw The Shoah,
1206
00:58:37,640 –> 00:58:43,119
you see over there that the Polish woman says “yes, I was
1207
00:58:43,119 –> 00:58:46,440
happy to get rid of them. Before I was a maid”, she
1208
00:58:46,440 –> 00:58:52,680
says, “I used to pick potatoes. Now, I’m a businessman.”
1209
00:58:52,680 –> 00:58:55,200
She spoke out fair and square.
1210
00:58:55,200 –> 00:58:59,200
Yeah, people were aware.
1211
00:58:59,200 –> 00:59:02,640
While you were in Auschwitz, did
1212
00:59:02,640 –> 00:59:06,559
you see anyone attempt to escape or did
1213
00:59:06,559 –> 00:59:10,000
you see anything, any resistance?
1214
00:59:10,000 –> 00:59:14,240
In Auschwitz, and I told you, we’ll
1215
00:59:14,240 –> 00:59:17,440
continue in Birkenau over there. And in Birkenau
1216
00:59:17,440 –> 00:59:19,680
we came to Birkenau, we stayed over there. The only
1217
00:59:19,680 –> 00:59:22,240
way out was through the crematoriums, what you can see,
1218
00:59:22,240 –> 00:59:23,839
you didn’t see it actually because it
1219
00:59:23,839 –> 00:59:26,720
was surrounded by a fence and the fence
1220
00:59:26,720 –> 00:59:29,280
was all made of blankets but
1221
00:59:29,280 –> 00:59:31,720
you see the chimney and
1222
00:59:31,720 –> 00:59:35,240
a smoke, dark smoke coming out and it was a
1223
00:59:35,240 –> 00:59:37,760
terrible stink, a smell was
1224
00:59:37,760 –> 00:59:40,960
terrific in there. And the … over there,
1225
00:59:40,960 –> 00:59:42,839
There was a road and they said the road is all
1226
00:59:42,839 –> 00:59:45,799
made of crushed bones or ashes
1227
00:59:45,799 –> 00:59:48,520
because they get rid of the –
1228
00:59:48,520 –> 00:59:52,119
There was no way out –
1229
00:59:52,119 –> 00:59:56,200
Birkenau was a “Zigeuner” camp, they called it
1230
00:59:56,200 –> 00:59:58,200
because that was a Gypsy camp, they
1231
00:59:58,200 –> 00:59:59,640
called it. Because the Gypsies, they brought
1232
00:59:59,640 –> 01:00:01,520
back the Gypsies and they exterminated
1233
01:00:01,520 –> 01:00:03,760
them over there. When I came
1234
01:00:03,760 –> 01:00:07,319
to Auschwitz, before us came
1235
01:00:07,319 –> 01:00:10,440
Jews from Hungary … they came
1236
01:00:10,440 –> 01:00:12,920
I don’t know how many, 100,000, 150,000
1237
01:00:12,920 –> 01:00:14,799
I don’t know how many they killed over there
1238
01:00:14,799 –> 01:00:18,998
in Auschwitz – Hungarian Jews – we came after that.
1239
01:00:18,999 –> 01:00:22,280
They had a number A and I have
1240
01:00:22,280 –> 01:00:23,520
a number B.
1241
01:00:23,520 –> 01:00:26,480
You see, the B transport,
1242
01:00:26,480 –> 01:00:29,880
and they have an A, in the beginning. Yeah.
1243
01:00:29,880 –> 01:00:32,359
My number was – when you were in the
1244
01:00:32,359 –> 01:00:33,720
concentration camp, they gave you all a number.
1245
01:00:33,721 –> 01:00:35,720
B6901.
1246
01:00:35,720 –> 01:00:38,919
This was your name, your birth, your everything.
1247
01:00:38,920 –> 01:00:40,240
You were not known as a person,
1248
01:00:40,240 –> 01:00:42,280
you were only a number.
1249
01:00:42,280 –> 01:00:45,440
Everything commuted to you was by
1250
01:00:45,440 –> 01:00:47,920
calling your number. They will not call you Mr.
1251
01:00:47,920 –> 01:00:53,359
Solomon Biezunski. B6901 – that’s what was your number.
1252
01:00:53,359 –> 01:00:56,559
And the only way to get out
1253
01:00:56,559 –> 01:00:59,680
was, if you’re lucky, you went to work or
1254
01:00:59,680 –> 01:01:02,880
you stayed over there, because this was
1255
01:01:02,880 –> 01:01:05,039
it was known at that time already, it was known after,
1256
01:01:05,039 –> 01:01:06,640
it was a death camp.
1257
01:01:06,640 –> 01:01:09,760
Every day, people used to come,
1258
01:01:09,760 –> 01:01:11,720
the SS used to come with some private
1259
01:01:11,720 –> 01:01:17,400
people and the whole block used to
1260
01:01:17,400 –> 01:01:22,640
disrobe and keep your hands up and
1261
01:01:22,640 –> 01:01:25,359
march by those Germans, march by,
1262
01:01:25,359 –> 01:01:26,480
completely naked.
1263
01:01:26,480 –> 01:01:29,280
And they used to look at it, how
1264
01:01:29,280 –> 01:01:33,200
you survived, the notion was when you had
1265
01:01:33,200 –> 01:01:37,079
on your cheeks here, some meat, you’re
1266
01:01:37,079 –> 01:01:39,400
workable, you can work a little more.
1267
01:01:39,400 –> 01:01:41,160
You can make it. If you had
1268
01:01:41,160 –> 01:01:43,760
no meat here, on your cheeks,
1269
01:01:43,760 –> 01:01:46,079
then you’re a “Muselmann”. I don’t know how
1270
01:01:46,079 –> 01:01:48,760
they named it, just know that a “Muselmann” was a
1271
01:01:48,760 –> 01:01:51,039
name for a man who has to be exterminated.
1272
01:01:51,039 –> 01:01:52,720
They would call it – in the beginning
1273
01:01:52,720 –> 01:01:55,359
they called “Muselmann”, I thought maybe
1274
01:01:55,359 –> 01:01:57,079
they meant Muslim.
1275
01:01:57,079 –> 01:01:59,559
But they said “No, no, no, don’t you
1276
01:01:59,559 –> 01:02:01,640
go, the Muselmann is someone who is going to be
1277
01:02:01,640 –> 01:02:05,720
exterminated.” Another way to call it. Maybe they
1278
01:02:05,720 –> 01:02:08,200
I don’t know – they meant like the
1279
01:02:08,200 –> 01:02:10,200
Bedouin, the very skinny –
1280
01:02:10,200 –> 01:02:11,520
Was this what was meant by The
1281
01:02:11,520 –> 01:02:13,599
Walking Dead when they spoke of The Walking Dead?
1282
01:02:13,599 –> 01:02:15,720
Yeah, Walking Dead was a Muselmann.
1283
01:02:15,720 –> 01:02:18,440
I don’t know where they got it – if it has any
1284
01:02:18,440 –> 01:02:21,880
connection to the Muslim religion or like the Bedouin,
1285
01:02:21,880 –> 01:02:24,319
the Muslims, the skinny desert people.
1286
01:02:24,319 –> 01:02:27,359
I don’t know, but this was the name.
1287
01:02:27,359 –> 01:02:30,480
And they looked at it and I came and they
1288
01:02:30,480 –> 01:02:32,520
said they’re looking for strong people
1289
01:02:32,520 –> 01:02:36,960
and craftsmen. And I, like everybody else,
1290
01:02:36,960 –> 01:02:39,799
I was not a big much of a person,
1291
01:02:39,799 –> 01:02:42,160
you can imagine of me, but I stood up
1292
01:02:42,160 –> 01:02:45,720
naked and there was an SS officer and
1293
01:02:45,720 –> 01:02:47,359
another few officers over there and
1294
01:02:47,359 –> 01:02:48,559
there was a civilian.
1295
01:02:48,559 –> 01:02:53,559
And the civilian asked in German
1296
01:02:53,559 –> 01:02:56,359
“what are you?” I said “I am a lathe hand.” but
1297
01:02:56,359 –> 01:02:59,200
the SS looked at me, my figure, and he says “No.”
1298
01:02:59,200 –> 01:03:03,279
But the civilian says, in German “No, we need him.”
1299
01:03:03,279 –> 01:03:07,960
And this was my ticket to life, actually.
1300
01:03:07,960 –> 01:03:12,160
Because they picked up 360 people
1301
01:03:12,160 –> 01:03:16,160
and put us on lorries and brought us
1302
01:03:16,160 –> 01:03:21,119
in the vicinity of Auschwitz to Furstengrube, it was a coal mine.
1303
01:03:21,119 –> 01:03:26,440
We came over there, it was maybe 3 in the afternoon.
1304
01:03:26,440 –> 01:03:28,839
And they disrupt us again, they put us in
1305
01:03:28,839 –> 01:03:31,640
a big open space, “Appellplatz” is what they called it.
1306
01:03:31,640 –> 01:03:34,279
The drill place, over there.
1307
01:03:34,279 –> 01:03:36,880
And can you imagine 360 people, naked,
1308
01:03:36,880 –> 01:03:39,039
standing around? They deprive you
1309
01:03:39,039 –> 01:03:41,559
of all your human rights, digging into
1310
01:03:41,559 –> 01:03:43,160
everything. You don’t even have –
1311
01:03:43,160 –> 01:03:45,298
I would say “where to put my hands?”
1312
01:03:45,299 –> 01:03:47,198
I’d put them in my pockets, but I –
1313
01:03:47,199 –> 01:03:49,398
I had, at that time, I had civilian clothes
1314
01:03:49,399 –> 01:03:50,680
what I got in Auschwitz,
1315
01:03:50,680 –> 01:03:53,200
they took my old clothes, and gave me a set
1316
01:03:53,200 –> 01:03:56,319
of clothes from a grown-up man, pants,
1317
01:03:56,319 –> 01:03:58,920
and a shirt, and a big jacket and it’s good I
1318
01:03:58,920 –> 01:04:00,758
had a belt, but they left me the shoes.
1319
01:04:00,759 –> 01:04:03,880
I had a belt and –
1320
01:04:03,880 –> 01:04:06,839
we came over there – now, yes,
1321
01:04:06,839 –> 01:04:09,359
before we came in Auschwitz, too, they
1322
01:04:09,359 –> 01:04:10,839
changed our clothes after we came out from
1323
01:04:10,839 –> 01:04:13,599
the train – change the clothes – they took us out
1324
01:04:13,599 –> 01:04:16,279
before went – the first day, they
1325
01:04:16,279 –> 01:04:20,039
shaved all your hair and they took Lysol
1326
01:04:20,039 –> 01:04:26,480
all on your – there and here and here – and all they
1327
01:04:26,480 –> 01:04:29,279
hair and they took Lysol and
1328
01:04:29,279 –> 01:04:31,640
they rubbed it in and this was burning
1329
01:04:31,640 –> 01:04:34,119
especially here, it was a terrible pain.
1330
01:04:34,119 –> 01:04:40,720
The first night, stinging in all all sensitive places.
1331
01:04:40,720 –> 01:04:43,240
We survived that too.
1332
01:04:43,240 –> 01:04:46,000
Now, we came over there, they disrobe you,
1333
01:04:46,000 –> 01:04:47,960
and you stand for two, three hours
1334
01:04:47,960 –> 01:04:49,680
and people are coming from the second
1335
01:04:49,680 –> 01:04:52,960
shift, they came back from work, like 5:00 they
1336
01:04:52,960 –> 01:04:56,200
… as they mixed with the naked people standing
1337
01:04:56,200 –> 01:04:58,440
It was 8:00 in the evening, yet already dark,
1338
01:04:58,440 –> 01:05:02,359
was already September in Poland, it’s very cold, can you imagine?
1339
01:05:02,359 –> 01:05:07,640
And they gave us those striped clothes and they gave us
1340
01:05:07,640 –> 01:05:11,799
wooden shoes and they left us only the belt
1341
01:05:11,799 –> 01:05:14,039
and they gave us different concentration …
1342
01:05:14,039 –> 01:05:18,200
And they gave us soup, the first good meal,
1343
01:05:18,200 –> 01:05:21,039
each one, and gave each one
1344
01:05:21,039 –> 01:05:27,039
a soap, and a nice piece of bread.
1345
01:05:27,680 –> 01:05:32,760
This was like paradise again after over there
1346
01:05:32,760 –> 01:05:34,720
two weeks, I was only two weeks
1347
01:05:34,720 –> 01:05:39,119
in Birkenau. I said “If I don’t go to work,
1348
01:05:39,119 –> 01:05:40,960
that’s it, you’re dead here.” And there was no way.
1349
01:05:40,960 –> 01:05:46,400
It was known that’s a “Deathlager”, death camp
1350
01:05:47,520 –> 01:05:51,960
Over there, in Furstengrube,
1351
01:05:51,960 –> 01:05:56,359
they put me in a block and
1352
01:05:56,359 –> 01:06:00,119
got you a bunk, to sleep on.
1353
01:06:00,119 –> 01:06:06,400
And they sent me to work in the mines.
1354
01:06:06,400 –> 01:06:10,319
I worked in – there was only 1,800
1355
01:06:10,319 –> 01:06:15,559
people over there. The “Lagerältester”, the civilian, was a
1356
01:06:15,559 –> 01:06:18,680
he had a red triangle – he was a political [prisoner].
1357
01:06:18,680 –> 01:06:21,240
His name was Josef Hermann or
1358
01:06:21,240 –> 01:06:26,119
Herman Josef. The “Lagerführer”, the SS man, was a
1359
01:06:26,119 –> 01:06:27,440
lieutenant, SS lieutenant,
1360
01:06:27,440 –> 01:06:31,559
he was Josef Schmidt. He was a very young
1361
01:06:31,559 –> 01:06:34,039
person, he was maybe 20, 23 years old.
1362
01:06:34,039 –> 01:06:39,960
After the war, a prosecutor came from Kiel to
1363
01:06:39,960 –> 01:06:44,340
Israel, from Kiel, Kiel is northern, Schleswig-Holstein,
1364
01:06:44,400 –> 01:06:49,039
and he asked for people who were in Furstengrube.
1365
01:06:49,039 –> 01:06:52,160
And the police contacted me because
1366
01:06:52,160 –> 01:06:53,799
they knew the people who were
1367
01:06:53,799 –> 01:06:56,960
over there, in Furstengrube, when I gave my –
1368
01:06:56,960 –> 01:06:59,160
and he asked me if I know – he showed me a picture
1369
01:06:59,160 –> 01:07:01,000
do you know Josef Schmidt
1370
01:07:01,000 –> 01:07:04,079
Lagerführer, he showed me a picture.
1371
01:07:04,079 –> 01:07:06,720
This was after maybe 15 years and I
1372
01:07:06,720 –> 01:07:09,559
said “this is the man” he said “you’re right”
1373
01:07:09,559 –> 01:07:12,240
He was hiding for 20 years.
1374
01:07:12,240 –> 01:07:15,920
And he came out now and
1375
01:07:15,920 –> 01:07:18,440
gave himself up. You wouldn’t believe how
1376
01:07:18,440 –> 01:07:20,680
he looks now, the difference, with a beard and everything.
1377
01:07:20,680 –> 01:07:24,039
He asked me only one thing.
1378
01:07:24,039 –> 01:07:28,160
“Did he kill anything? Did you see the man actually kill somebody?”
1379
01:07:28,160 –> 01:07:31,359
I remember my father
1380
01:07:31,359 –> 01:07:34,000
always use to tell me that if somebody is a
1381
01:07:34,000 –> 01:07:36,119
murderer, you don’t have right to be a
1382
01:07:36,119 –> 01:07:37,319
murderer yourself.
1383
01:07:37,319 –> 01:07:40,440
And in fact all the people who were
1384
01:07:40,440 –> 01:07:43,240
interviewed from Furstengrube, everybody said,
1385
01:07:43,240 –> 01:07:46,520
all the Jews, he didn’t discriminate because
1386
01:07:46,520 –> 01:07:48,799
he was SS, he was a German, he was
1387
01:07:48,799 –> 01:07:50,960
in charge of them. They didn’t try
1388
01:07:50,960 –> 01:07:54,000
to lie and to lie to their
1389
01:07:54,000 –> 01:07:57,200
conscience and say “yes, he was a murderer.”
1390
01:07:57,200 –> 01:08:00,119
Everybody said the same thing. “No, he was
1391
01:08:00,119 –> 01:08:03,520
not. He never killed anybody.” And it was true.
1392
01:08:03,520 –> 01:08:07,559
Because the story was,
1393
01:08:07,559 –> 01:08:09,720
before, I was not there,
1394
01:08:09,720 –> 01:08:13,480
the January before I came,
1395
01:08:13,480 –> 01:08:16,759
a year before, in January, we had Arbeitsdienstführer Moll
1396
01:08:16,760 –> 01:08:20,779
was his name, he was a Lagerführer, second in command,
1397
01:08:20,780 –> 01:08:24,799
and Moll was a mass murderer, he was such a
1398
01:08:24,799 –> 01:08:26,479
murderer that they put him after in charge
1399
01:08:26,479 –> 01:08:28,479
him they put in charge in Auschwitz, he was so good
1400
01:08:28,479 –> 01:08:32,000
at murdering people. And on Christmas night
1401
01:08:32,000 –> 01:08:34,279
all the officers over there, they had a
1402
01:08:34,279 –> 01:08:36,880
a party going on and the night
1403
01:08:36,880 –> 01:08:38,880
shift came back, the second shift came
1404
01:08:38,880 –> 01:08:40,920
at 11:00 night, back, or 1:00, I don’t
1405
01:08:40,920 –> 01:08:44,479
remember the time, 11:00 anyhow. They came
1406
01:08:44,479 –> 01:08:47,158
back and one German Kapo was missing.
1407
01:08:47,158 –> 01:08:48,279
And they don’t know why, because they used
1408
01:08:48,279 –> 01:08:49,920
to go through a corridor with barbed wires
1409
01:08:49,920 –> 01:08:51,319
on the side, and they don’t know how
1410
01:08:51,319 –> 01:08:54,600
he escaped. Moll lined up all
1411
01:08:54,600 –> 01:08:56,880
the Lager, all the camp, in the middle of the night.
1412
01:08:56,880 –> 01:08:58,399
People had to go out,
1413
01:08:58,399 –> 01:09:00,880
winter, there was snow, everything, and they
1414
01:09:00,880 –> 01:09:03,759
picked out 1, 2, 3, 4 and just machine gunned
1415
01:09:03,759 –> 01:09:07,319
Jews! The guy who escaped was a German!
1416
01:09:07,319 –> 01:09:11,120
And they said, the rumor was said, that he stopped him,
1417
01:09:11,120 –> 01:09:14,799
Schmidt, says “listen, it’s Weihnachten, it’s Christmas,
1418
01:09:14,799 –> 01:09:17,799
enough killing for one night.”
1419
01:09:17,799 –> 01:09:22,279
And he was transferred to
1420
01:09:22,279 –> 01:09:25,880
Auschwitz, up there, and he actually got his job
1421
01:09:25,880 –> 01:09:28,560
being connected well
1422
01:09:28,560 –> 01:09:31,679
because we built a new coal mine and the
1423
01:09:31,679 –> 01:09:33,960
guy in charge of the old cold mine was
1424
01:09:33,960 –> 01:09:36,880
his father-in-law and in fact his wife
1425
01:09:36,880 –> 01:09:38,640
lived over there with her sister too, two
1426
01:09:38,640 –> 01:09:40,158
blonde girls used to even come –
1427
01:09:40,158 –> 01:09:41,740
she used to see him.
1428
01:09:41,741 –> 01:09:44,479
This was Schmidt’s father-in-law? Schmidt’s father-in-law, yeah.
1429
01:09:44,479 –> 01:09:48,040
And everybody said the same.
1430
01:09:48,040 –> 01:09:51,198
No, he didn’t kill anybody.
1431
01:09:51,198 –> 01:09:54,400
And he wanted me to go to Germany, back,
1432
01:09:54,400 –> 01:09:56,759
to be a witness.
1433
01:09:56,760 –> 01:09:58,400
This, I don’t know, don’t want to go
1434
01:09:58,400 –> 01:10:00,280
to Germany, I don’t want no German
1435
01:10:00,280 –> 01:10:02,080
court, I don’t want, I have enough of it.
1436
01:10:02,080 –> 01:10:04,480
I said “you asked me the truth” I said “I’m not
1437
01:10:04,480 –> 01:10:06,560
a murderer, I’m not going to take the man’s
1438
01:10:06,560 –> 01:10:10,400
life because of what they did to us” I said
1439
01:10:10,400 –> 01:10:12,080
“I can only tell you that” saying “I didn’t
1440
01:10:12,080 –> 01:10:15,480
see him – nobody shot”. That’s it.
1441
01:10:15,480 –> 01:10:18,360
We came to Furstengrube over there
1442
01:10:18,360 –> 01:10:22,100
they sent me to work in a group with a Polish miner
1443
01:10:22,101 –> 01:10:25,880
like his helper, we used to fix the rails over there
1444
01:10:25,880 –> 01:10:30,520
there is a long hammer, with a wrench, and used to –
1445
01:10:30,520 –> 01:10:33,480
that Pole, he liked me for some reason,
1446
01:10:33,480 –> 01:10:37,000
he always said “Szalek, after
1447
01:10:37,000 –> 01:10:39,040
the war, you’ll stay here with me
1448
01:10:39,040 –> 01:10:41,199
you’ll go to marry my daughter
1449
01:10:41,199 –> 01:10:45,679
you’re a nice guy, I like you.” And the
1450
01:10:45,679 –> 01:10:47,920
most important thing, after I worked with
1451
01:10:47,920 –> 01:10:50,159
him two weeks, three weeks he used to
1452
01:10:50,159 –> 01:10:52,280
bring a breakfast for me. His wife
1453
01:10:52,280 –> 01:10:54,679
used to prepare a breakfast for myself too.
1454
01:10:54,679 –> 01:10:59,280
Two pieces of bread with butter – God!
1455
01:10:59,280 –> 01:11:02,840
I even didn’t believe – how could it happen
1456
01:11:02,840 –> 01:11:05,679
I didn’t eat anything like that in my life.
1457
01:11:05,679 –> 01:11:08,600
But I didn’t work with him, I worked
1458
01:11:08,600 –> 01:11:11,719
with him for three or four weeks, and one
1459
01:11:11,719 –> 01:11:14,000
day on we came back for work and they
1460
01:11:14,000 –> 01:11:16,480
called my number – you go to the Arbeitsdienst-
1461
01:11:16,480 –> 01:11:18,320
the man who was in charge of the work details.
1462
01:11:18,320 –> 01:11:23,120
You call your number in the concentration camp,
1463
01:11:23,120 –> 01:11:26,159
this is a very tricky affair.
1464
01:11:26,159 –> 01:11:28,440
You never know what they’re going to do with you.
1465
01:11:28,440 –> 01:11:31,199
But I go over there and the fellow
1466
01:11:31,199 –> 01:11:34,960
says to me you’re going to work with a
1467
01:11:34,960 –> 01:11:39,920
machine – in a machine shop, next Monday.
1468
01:11:39,920 –> 01:11:43,199
And I came to the machine shop and
1469
01:11:43,199 –> 01:11:45,120
who was in charge of the machine shop – that
1470
01:11:45,120 –> 01:11:48,080
fellow, the German engineer, who picked me up
1471
01:11:48,080 –> 01:11:54,320
to go to work. And this man, for some reason, at that
1472
01:11:54,320 –> 01:11:56,880
time Germany didn’t have any craftsmen.
1473
01:11:56,880 –> 01:12:00,040
They needed every man who knew something,
1474
01:12:00,040 –> 01:12:01,800
machine, to do something, for he
1475
01:12:01,800 –> 01:12:03,719
was very concerned about the victory.
1476
01:12:03,719 –> 01:12:06,159
At that time, he didn’t know, he didn’t
1477
01:12:06,159 –> 01:12:08,239
believe they were going to lose the war.
1478
01:12:08,239 –> 01:12:10,360
But, for me, that was good, because
1479
01:12:10,360 –> 01:12:15,278
he tried to do anything to make my –
1480
01:12:15,279 –> 01:12:18,989
Your life bearable? My life bearable – because people outside,
1481
01:12:18,990 –> 01:12:23,320
they used to work, dig
1482
01:12:23,320 –> 01:12:26,159
shafts, in the water, used to keep
1483
01:12:26,159 –> 01:12:30,600
steel, without the gloves,
1484
01:12:30,600 –> 01:12:32,960
and steel, frozen, you pick up
1485
01:12:32,960 –> 01:12:36,199
a piece of steel, you pick it up,
1486
01:12:36,199 –> 01:12:38,080
you can lose all your skin
1487
01:12:38,080 –> 01:12:40,360
get glued to the steel, frozen
1488
01:12:40,360 –> 01:12:43,239
steel is very dangerous and we
1489
01:12:43,239 –> 01:12:46,239
had over there a Kapo in charge
1490
01:12:46,239 –> 01:12:49,639
of the whole work detail, used to call him Wilhelm,
1491
01:12:49,639 –> 01:12:52,060
the Kaiser, his nickname was “the Kaiser”
1492
01:12:52,061 –> 01:12:54,680
he was a mass murderer, he killed his mother-in-law, his father-in-law,
1493
01:12:54,681 –> 01:12:56,989
I don’t know how many people, and he used to beat them up,
1494
01:12:56,990 –> 01:12:59,679
but in the machine shop, he
1495
01:12:59,679 –> 01:13:01,280
was not allowed to go in and
1496
01:13:01,280 –> 01:13:02,639
when you go in you had to behave,
1497
01:13:02,639 –> 01:13:05,000
as a skilled worker, he was not allowed to
1498
01:13:05,000 –> 01:13:06,880
touch you because he
1499
01:13:06,880 –> 01:13:10,520
compromises the German –
1500
01:13:12,320 –> 01:13:15,960
industrial might – he was worried
1501
01:13:15,960 –> 01:13:18,639
that that German was very –
1502
01:13:18,639 –> 01:13:21,400
keep an eye on him, that he don’t beat –
1503
01:13:21,400 –> 01:13:23,719
there were 20 Jewish prisoners working over there.
1504
01:13:23,719 –> 01:13:25,800
We had Italians working over there,
1505
01:13:25,800 –> 01:13:28,199
prisoners of war, we had French
1506
01:13:28,199 –> 01:13:30,800
civilian workers over there, many people, and it
1507
01:13:30,800 –> 01:13:32,520
was very helpful because if you
1508
01:13:32,520 –> 01:13:34,000
work with foreigners they had more
1509
01:13:34,000 –> 01:13:35,880
access to fruit, to some potatoes, they
1510
01:13:35,880 –> 01:13:39,960
give you, this give you,
1511
01:13:40,719 –> 01:13:44,159
And I worked over there until January
1512
01:13:44,159 –> 01:13:47,480
1945, January 1945
1513
01:13:49,239 –> 01:13:53,080
but what was my luck then by having a
1514
01:13:53,080 –> 01:13:57,000
little more food, this was a camp for
1515
01:13:57,000 –> 01:14:00,040
hard workers and the hard workers and
1516
01:14:00,040 –> 01:14:03,320
the camp used to be under contract to
1517
01:14:03,320 –> 01:14:04,719
…
1518
01:14:04,719 –> 01:14:08,360
You had – it’s a big German …
1519
01:14:08,360 –> 01:14:13,520
…
1520
01:14:14,040 –> 01:14:16,760
And I worked over there
1521
01:14:16,760 –> 01:14:20,080
they gave me a bit of a piece of soap,
1522
01:14:20,080 –> 01:14:23,120
a wash cloth, what you don’t have, in the concentration camp
1523
01:14:23,120 –> 01:14:25,280
you didn’t have a towel, nothing, your shirt
1524
01:14:25,280 –> 01:14:27,760
was a towel and that’s it.
1525
01:14:27,760 –> 01:14:30,760
And we used to get – what the best
1526
01:14:30,760 –> 01:14:32,800
thing we used to get – a soup a day, but we
1527
01:14:32,800 –> 01:14:36,639
used to get three times 350 grams of bread and
1528
01:14:36,639 –> 01:14:40,000
four times 700 grams of bread. This was
1529
01:14:40,000 –> 01:14:44,600
from my – I used to stand over there
1530
01:14:44,600 –> 01:14:47,080
next to the lathe all the time chew, chew
1531
01:14:47,080 –> 01:14:49,960
whatever I get. And foreman, Adam was
1532
01:14:49,960 –> 01:14:53,040
his name, he says “why you eating like a
1533
01:14:53,040 –> 01:14:56,320
like a …, like a cow, you chew,
1534
01:14:56,320 –> 01:14:58,840
I said listen, I’m hungry,
1535
01:14:58,840 –> 01:15:00,080
four years I didn’t have a piece of
1536
01:15:00,080 –> 01:15:02,679
bread. I’m hungry. I store bread from
1537
01:15:02,679 –> 01:15:05,880
everybody, and this spot – and those
1538
01:15:05,880 –> 01:15:08,560
few months over there, they brought me,
1539
01:15:08,560 –> 01:15:11,560
back to my strength. And I always thinking
1540
01:15:11,560 –> 01:15:13,719
that my mother might see me
1541
01:15:13,719 –> 01:15:16,000
that I have my life and I’m doing,
1542
01:15:16,000 –> 01:15:18,239
compared to the circumstance,
1543
01:15:18,239 –> 01:15:19,120
I’m doing better, well –
1544
01:15:19,121 –> 01:15:21,119
You didn’t have any idea that she was –
1545
01:15:21,120 –> 01:15:23,400
No. I said, I’m the only kid,
1546
01:15:23,400 –> 01:15:25,560
the only son, she maybe
1547
01:15:25,560 –> 01:15:27,880
even while dying, she was
1548
01:15:27,880 –> 01:15:29,920
thinking about her kid. And I said:
1549
01:15:29,920 –> 01:15:34,400
I wish she, she shouldn’t –
1550
01:15:59,320 –> 01:16:02,040
Yeah. And this just was –
1551
01:16:02,040 –> 01:16:04,199
that I came a little to –
1552
01:16:04,199 –> 01:16:08,320
my strength, over there. In January 1945,
1553
01:16:08,320 –> 01:16:12,160
the big retreat began.
1554
01:16:12,161 –> 01:16:15,579
From Auschwitz, they started to take all the people out.
1555
01:16:15,580 –> 01:16:19,440
Somebody tried to hide and
1556
01:16:19,440 –> 01:16:22,040
maybe they survived. In Auschwitz they
1557
01:16:22,040 –> 01:16:24,239
killed all of the people, maybe only a few
1558
01:16:24,239 –> 01:16:28,880
survivors when the Russians came. And we were, actually,
1559
01:16:28,880 –> 01:16:30,639
normally a strong bunch of people, only
1560
01:16:30,639 –> 01:16:33,040
1,800 of us, and we started to march.
1561
01:16:33,040 –> 01:16:35,880
We started to march and I remember
1562
01:16:35,880 –> 01:16:38,560
the guy from the … gave me
1563
01:16:38,560 –> 01:16:41,600
a … I don’t know it what was.
1564
01:16:41,600 –> 01:16:44,960
And we walked over there, and we had
1565
01:16:44,960 –> 01:16:48,159
some carriages that we had to push, and
1566
01:16:48,159 –> 01:16:51,280
I had a friend, his name is …, he
1567
01:16:51,280 –> 01:16:53,400
still lives in Israel, they gave us two
1568
01:16:53,400 –> 01:16:55,679
sticks, the SS, and put his … on it, and
1569
01:16:55,679 –> 01:16:58,440
we had to carry it for him – and we
1570
01:16:58,440 –> 01:17:01,000
marched from Kattowitz to Gleiwitz, I think maybe 80
1571
01:17:01,000 –> 01:17:03,080
kilometers, I don’t know, but –
1572
01:17:03,080 –> 01:17:06,040
the snow, and people had
1573
01:17:06,040 –> 01:17:08,960
those wooden boots, but I was lucky – in
1574
01:17:08,960 –> 01:17:11,639
the concentration camp when I worked in a
1575
01:17:11,639 –> 01:17:15,239
machine shop, they had to give you leather shoes.
1576
01:17:15,239 –> 01:17:17,760
I couldn’t work with the
1577
01:17:17,760 –> 01:17:19,400
old shoes. They gave me
1578
01:17:19,400 –> 01:17:22,320
leather shoes. And the snow
1579
01:17:22,320 –> 01:17:25,080
didn’t stick to it, you can walk. And we
1580
01:17:25,080 –> 01:17:26,760
walked over there
1581
01:17:26,760 –> 01:17:30,000
and all the time, they’re shooting in the back,
1582
01:17:30,000 –> 01:17:32,480
they shooting everybody who’s left behind,
1583
01:17:32,480 –> 01:17:34,080
they just killed him.
1584
01:17:34,080 –> 01:17:37,040
You have to go for forward, there was no
1585
01:17:37,040 –> 01:17:39,480
way, some people maybe escaped, but I tell
1586
01:17:39,480 –> 01:17:42,400
you, I never had – I always, I don’t know,
1587
01:17:42,400 –> 01:17:44,560
I never tried to escape, I don’t know why.
1588
01:17:44,560 –> 01:17:47,320
But we were carrying those
1589
01:17:47,320 –> 01:17:48,480
sticks with a …
1590
01:17:48,480 –> 01:17:53,280
And even the SS, a that time, the SS,
1591
01:17:53,280 –> 01:17:57,360
even they couldn’t make it.
1592
01:17:57,360 –> 01:17:59,199
But I said to the friend, listen we’re
1593
01:17:59,199 –> 01:18:00,840
not going to make with this …
1594
01:18:00,840 –> 01:18:03,480
here on – just throw it away and
1595
01:18:03,480 –> 01:18:04,960
just run forward and that’s it, because
1596
01:18:04,960 –> 01:18:07,280
we all have the same green hat like
1597
01:18:07,280 –> 01:18:09,320
that with the stripe overcoat
1598
01:18:09,320 –> 01:18:11,199
who knows – he’s going to look?
1599
01:18:11,199 –> 01:18:12,989
Did you have any idea where you going?
1600
01:18:12,990 –> 01:18:17,920
No, no they just moved us, the SS.
1601
01:18:17,920 –> 01:18:20,920
We came, and then we threw it away, we
1602
01:18:20,920 –> 01:18:22,840
ran away, and he was hollering over there
1603
01:18:22,840 –> 01:18:24,960
“where are my things”
1604
01:18:24,960 –> 01:18:29,920
We forget it. Then, we found, over there
1605
01:18:29,920 –> 01:18:33,480
we rested a little, we found one of the
1606
01:18:33,480 –> 01:18:35,440
lorries that we had, that we pushed,
1607
01:18:35,440 –> 01:18:36,679
the small lorries.
1608
01:18:36,679 –> 01:18:38,880
And on the lorry, in the
1609
01:18:38,880 –> 01:18:42,880
concentration camp, they make
1610
01:18:42,880 –> 01:18:45,719
soup, pea soup, from powder
1611
01:18:45,719 –> 01:18:47,320
you’ll add water
1612
01:18:47,320 –> 01:18:50,800
I saw that thing, I said you’ll
1613
01:18:50,800 –> 01:18:53,080
never know, it’s some food.
1614
01:18:53,080 –> 01:18:55,400
I took – I had an extra shirt, I took
1615
01:18:55,400 –> 01:18:58,639
the shirt, and made from – tore off those
1616
01:18:58,639 –> 01:19:00,880
arms, I made like sacks and
1617
01:19:00,880 –> 01:19:04,080
put the powder in, and put under my –
1618
01:19:04,080 –> 01:19:08,120
I said to my friend, Franz over there, Henryk
1619
01:19:08,120 –> 01:19:10,120
maybe we’ll need it, we’ll take it.
1620
01:19:10,120 –> 01:19:14,400
Now we came to Gleiwitz – Gleiwitz, now the Polish
1621
01:19:14,400 –> 01:19:17,760
call it Gliwice, now it’s Poland, at that time it was German.
1622
01:19:17,760 –> 01:19:23,080
… we come to the
1623
01:19:23,719 –> 01:19:27,120
there was a station, the station, you
1624
01:19:27,120 –> 01:19:31,520
come in the station, and bodies like wood logs.
1625
01:19:31,520 –> 01:19:34,560
This way, this way,
1626
01:19:34,560 –> 01:19:39,000
5, 6 feet high. Just people,
1627
01:19:39,000 –> 01:19:41,760
human bodies, laid out like – corpses,
1628
01:19:41,760 –> 01:19:43,800
not just throwing – like laid out nice
1629
01:19:43,800 –> 01:19:45,719
like wooden logs, like you
1630
01:19:45,719 –> 01:19:48,719
store wood – stacked – yeah, and stacked and
1631
01:19:48,719 –> 01:19:51,040
they put chloride, or something – white
1632
01:19:51,040 –> 01:19:53,639
powder on top of it. Lime?
1633
01:19:53,639 –> 01:19:55,960
And they put them all in the station –
1634
01:19:59,120 –> 01:20:02,080
There was a cabinet over there – all night
1635
01:20:02,080 –> 01:20:04,000
I stood in the cabinet and slept. There was no
1636
01:20:04,000 –> 01:20:08,040
place to lay down. In the morning,
1637
01:20:08,040 –> 01:20:10,719
they said everybody on the railroad – up
1638
01:20:10,719 –> 01:20:12,040
There were open lorries –
1639
01:20:12,040 –> 01:20:14,840
not closed, this time open.
1640
01:20:14,840 –> 01:20:17,840
Like you move coal, anything. Okay – open
1641
01:20:17,840 –> 01:20:21,159
lorries and yes, what I had, when I went
1642
01:20:21,159 –> 01:20:25,199
from the concentration camp – I took one of the,
1643
01:20:25,199 –> 01:20:27,199
I had a good blanket, it was a
1644
01:20:27,199 –> 01:20:29,199
woolen blanket from the rich Jews.
1645
01:20:29,199 –> 01:20:31,360
They took it away, they gave it –
1646
01:20:31,360 –> 01:20:33,440
and I made a whole poncho, like a
1647
01:20:33,440 –> 01:20:36,199
Mexican, I put it on myself and wore it like that,
1648
01:20:36,199 –> 01:20:40,320
protect you from the wind, it was January in Poland.
1649
01:20:40,320 –> 01:20:44,920
Open lorries, my friend – we had a …
1650
01:20:44,920 –> 01:20:48,520
Like food, and pot, and he has a pot,
1651
01:20:48,520 –> 01:20:51,679
and we come out and we sit down in the lorries,
1652
01:20:51,679 –> 01:20:56,000
oh it’s nice, we’re going to go –
1653
01:20:56,000 –> 01:20:58,280
we cannot sit anymore, more people, more
1654
01:20:58,280 –> 01:21:00,080
people – we cannot stand anymore,
1655
01:21:00,080 –> 01:21:02,840
they packed the people like herrings
1656
01:21:02,840 –> 01:21:05,560
and you had to be lucky, you
1657
01:21:05,560 –> 01:21:08,040
had your back against the wall, because
1658
01:21:08,040 –> 01:21:10,320
people in the middle they got crazy
1659
01:21:10,320 –> 01:21:13,199
jumped about, they got all crazy. You wouldn’t
1660
01:21:13,199 –> 01:21:15,800
believe what was going on on that train.
1661
01:21:15,800 –> 01:21:17,679
They put the train – they couldn’t go
1662
01:21:17,679 –> 01:21:20,320
through Poznań to Germany that way.
1663
01:21:20,320 –> 01:21:22,918
You had to go through Czechoslovakia,
1664
01:21:22,919 –> 01:21:26,679
for seven days we traveled in that train.
1665
01:21:26,680 –> 01:21:29,840
We came, the first time, there was –
1666
01:21:29,840 –> 01:21:31,600
we had a Croatian SS.
1667
01:21:31,600 –> 01:21:34,040
I will never forget, we came the
1668
01:21:34,040 –> 01:21:36,520
first time, and he says to us “we have no food.”
1669
01:21:36,520 –> 01:21:38,639
They didn’t give us – they gave us a
1670
01:21:38,639 –> 01:21:42,120
piece of bread and that’s it.
1671
01:21:42,120 –> 01:21:43,960
After two days you didn’t have any food
1672
01:21:43,960 –> 01:21:48,400
how are you – I was lucky, I used to take
1673
01:21:48,400 –> 01:21:50,719
with our belts, we used to take
1674
01:21:50,719 –> 01:21:52,520
the pot and we used to pick up some
1675
01:21:52,520 –> 01:21:55,639
snow and I had that powder, I mixed it
1676
01:21:55,639 –> 01:21:58,918
together and we ate it and it was – so salty!
1677
01:21:58,919 –> 01:22:01,239
What you ate, you want to drink,
1678
01:22:01,240 –> 01:22:03,560
but we were lucky, we went – next,
1679
01:22:03,560 –> 01:22:06,880
you were protected – your back.
1680
01:22:06,880 –> 01:22:10,239
The people in the middle, they had –
1681
01:22:10,239 –> 01:22:12,440
they ate their belt, they ate their shoes.
1682
01:22:12,440 –> 01:22:14,840
You wouldn’t believe. There was nothing to eat,
1683
01:22:14,840 –> 01:22:17,419
nothing to drink. They went mad, they got crazy.
1684
01:22:17,420 –> 01:22:19,719
Then after two days we stopped and
1685
01:22:19,719 –> 01:22:22,419
then the SS says “throw out the bodies.”
1686
01:22:22,420 –> 01:22:25,299
We said “what bodies?”
1687
01:22:25,300 –> 01:22:26,219
“There’s no bodies.”
1688
01:22:26,220 –> 01:22:29,760
“Look down.” We looked down, and we didn’t
1689
01:22:29,760 –> 01:22:31,519
believe it – we were standing on dead people.
1690
01:22:31,520 –> 01:22:34,439
What did the people do, they starved to death, the people.
1691
01:22:34,440 –> 01:22:36,760
At first, we start looking, can you
1692
01:22:36,760 –> 01:22:38,440
believe that the people after two
1693
01:22:38,440 –> 01:22:40,199
days over there they still have the bread,
1694
01:22:40,199 –> 01:22:42,520
they didn’t eat the bread, they saved it.
1695
01:22:42,520 –> 01:22:44,239
We used to rob them of what they had,
1696
01:22:44,239 –> 01:22:47,480
maybe they had some food.
1697
01:22:47,480 –> 01:22:51,239
We had to open up, line up
1698
01:22:51,239 –> 01:22:53,800
in a line over there, next to the stop –
1699
01:22:55,480 –> 01:22:58,360
And I remember he says “everybody up” and
1700
01:22:58,360 –> 01:23:01,280
we went up fast, and one guy didn’t make
1701
01:23:01,280 –> 01:23:03,560
it, and he took his gun and shot him.
1702
01:23:03,560 –> 01:23:06,639
And we all ducked, but we, saw his hands,
1703
01:23:06,639 –> 01:23:09,080
like he grabbed his hands inside,
1704
01:23:09,080 –> 01:23:11,880
and he shot him again.
1705
01:23:11,880 –> 01:23:15,639
This was a Croatian SS, in
1706
01:23:15,639 –> 01:23:19,520
our concentration camp.
1707
01:23:20,080 –> 01:23:25,280
We drove through Czechoslovakia.
1708
01:23:25,280 –> 01:23:28,800
Czechoslovakia – the people were great.
1709
01:23:28,800 –> 01:23:31,080
You have the train, the overpass going, they were
1710
01:23:31,080 –> 01:23:33,520
standing over the overpass and throwing in bread
1711
01:23:33,520 –> 01:23:36,199
and fruit and speck and everything. They
1712
01:23:36,199 –> 01:23:38,400
used to run along the thing with water,
1713
01:23:38,400 –> 01:23:41,080
really – kids. And the SS used to not
1714
01:23:41,080 –> 01:23:44,159
shoot, but they scared them away. But the
1715
01:23:44,159 –> 01:23:46,199
only place what you really – they knew,
1716
01:23:46,199 –> 01:23:50,639
miles away they knew, the Czechs, that there
1717
01:23:50,639 –> 01:23:53,600
were prisoners, a camp, and you see – every
1718
01:23:53,600 –> 01:23:55,600
place there was an overpass, they just threw everything
1719
01:23:55,600 –> 01:23:58,520
that they had, dumped and –
1720
01:23:58,520 –> 01:24:01,159
We came to Prague.
1721
01:24:01,159 –> 01:24:04,000
We came to Prague, and the train is
1722
01:24:04,000 –> 01:24:06,000
standing over there, and at that time it was
1723
01:24:06,000 –> 01:24:11,280
already seven, six days with maybe
1724
01:24:11,280 –> 01:24:15,280
60 people – it was already one
1725
01:24:15,280 –> 01:24:18,639
third full, it was two thirds empty.
1726
01:24:18,639 –> 01:24:22,880
And I, myself slept a little and my
1727
01:24:22,880 –> 01:24:25,280
friend used to watch me, that nobody –
1728
01:24:25,280 –> 01:24:27,639
because people just –
1729
01:24:27,639 –> 01:24:32,199
got mad – you could,
1730
01:24:32,199 –> 01:24:33,960
you fought all the time. I went from
1731
01:24:33,960 –> 01:24:35,679
the train, I was all scratched, I didn’t
1732
01:24:35,679 –> 01:24:38,120
even believe, from fighting.
1733
01:24:38,120 –> 01:24:40,719
He protected me, I protected him – so nobody
1734
01:24:40,719 –> 01:24:45,080
grabs us or takes us – you couldn’t just
1735
01:24:45,080 –> 01:24:49,920
We came to Prague, we came to Prague.
1736
01:24:49,920 –> 01:24:52,960
On the main station – but there was
1737
01:24:52,960 –> 01:24:54,960
already a place for everybody, because so
1738
01:24:54,960 –> 01:24:57,400
many we left, so many dead over there.
1739
01:24:57,400 –> 01:25:00,480
They said they had 10,000 people on the
1740
01:25:00,480 –> 01:25:03,000
transport, and only 2,000 arrived, actually.
1741
01:25:03,000 –> 01:25:06,000
He tells me, just died on the –
1742
01:25:06,000 –> 01:25:08,920
I’m telling you, you had to have the will, you cannot
1743
01:25:08,920 –> 01:25:11,560
even believe, and I was lucky I had a few months
1744
01:25:11,560 –> 01:25:13,320
where I was in the concentration camp, with the six
1745
01:25:13,320 –> 01:25:15,199
months, I get a little strength, I was not
1746
01:25:15,199 –> 01:25:18,520
like I came from the ghetto,
1747
01:25:18,520 –> 01:25:21,040
I grew, I don’t know what happened.
1748
01:25:21,040 –> 01:25:24,040
I don’t know. Maybe it was just a lust for
1749
01:25:24,040 –> 01:25:26,760
life, who knows. Can you believe, they’re
1750
01:25:26,760 –> 01:25:31,119
standing over, whole lorries over there, luggage –
1751
01:25:31,119 –> 01:25:33,679
filled with the German bread, the
1752
01:25:33,679 –> 01:25:36,119
military bread, and this soldier is standing over there,
1753
01:25:36,119 –> 01:25:37,960
this old guard, old German.
1754
01:25:37,960 –> 01:25:41,360
And I said to him in German, I said “Sir,
1755
01:25:41,360 –> 01:25:43,080
we didn’t eat for five days. Can you give
1756
01:25:43,080 –> 01:25:45,440
us a piece of bread?” Would you believe, he
1757
01:25:45,440 –> 01:25:48,639
took a bread and gave it to me.
1758
01:25:48,960 –> 01:25:55,280
I only had a piece of it because,
1759
01:25:55,280 –> 01:25:57,400
all the rest –
1760
01:25:57,400 –> 01:26:02,119
he brought a few more for those people in there.
1761
01:26:02,119 –> 01:26:10,280
And we arrived in Nordhausen, Dora.
1762
01:26:10,280 –> 01:26:13,480
Nordhausen was in Thuringia, it was not East
1763
01:26:13,480 –> 01:26:17,040
Germany. This was a concentration camp.
1764
01:26:17,040 –> 01:26:20,960
There was all buried, the people, just straight up.
1765
01:26:20,960 –> 01:26:25,760
And they manufactured the V-1, V-2 bombs,
1766
01:26:25,760 –> 01:26:28,440
they used to make over there. Everything was manufactured
1767
01:26:28,440 –> 01:26:31,400
inside. One of the scientists here
1768
01:26:31,400 –> 01:26:33,040
was later in the news, he was in
1769
01:26:33,040 –> 01:26:34,920
charge over there, in Nordhausen.
1770
01:26:34,920 –> 01:26:37,000
Now, I want to tell you another thing.
1771
01:26:37,000 –> 01:26:39,320
In Furstengrube, what happened before
1772
01:26:39,320 –> 01:26:46,719
we left. In Furstengrube, the camp had
1773
01:26:48,520 –> 01:26:52,080
a stone wall and there was a barrack
1774
01:26:52,080 –> 01:26:54,239
here and on the other side there was a
1775
01:26:54,239 –> 01:26:57,679
railroad going. Then, five Polish guys, or
1776
01:26:57,679 –> 01:26:59,639
four Polish guys, and a
1777
01:26:59,639 –> 01:27:02,639
Jewish fellow, they dug a tunnel, under
1778
01:27:02,639 –> 01:27:06,280
the wall, to reach the station over there.
1779
01:27:06,280 –> 01:27:08,679
The railroad – always used to go,
1780
01:27:08,679 –> 01:27:11,639
the trains with coals used to go.
1781
01:27:11,639 –> 01:27:15,840
And each barrack had a big bin,
1782
01:27:15,840 –> 01:27:17,840
like a wooden bin, where you used
1783
01:27:17,840 –> 01:27:20,000
to bring coals over there – put it – each
1784
01:27:20,000 –> 01:27:21,560
one, used to come from their shift, used to
1785
01:27:21,560 –> 01:27:23,920
bring a piece of coal to heat the barrack.
1786
01:27:25,040 –> 01:27:27,320
And the guys, from that bin they
1787
01:27:27,320 –> 01:27:29,520
made a double – and they dig out.
1788
01:27:29,520 –> 01:27:33,440
And they almost were finished, then
1789
01:27:33,440 –> 01:27:36,520
the train came around and they brought a new,
1790
01:27:36,520 –> 01:27:38,840
for the bathroom, we had over there a big
1791
01:27:38,840 –> 01:27:40,320
bathroom because the people, coming from the
1792
01:27:40,320 –> 01:27:42,159
shift, from the night shift, they used to take a
1793
01:27:42,159 –> 01:27:44,040
shower, because they were all back –
1794
01:27:44,040 –> 01:27:47,560
There they brought a big pressure
1795
01:27:47,560 –> 01:27:50,320
stove, I don’t know what, big
1796
01:27:50,320 –> 01:27:52,800
steel piece and dumped it
1797
01:27:52,800 –> 01:27:55,280
from the truck, from the
1798
01:27:55,280 –> 01:27:58,880
railroad car, and everything collapsed.
1799
01:27:58,880 –> 01:28:01,560
And then the SS found out.
1800
01:28:01,560 –> 01:28:07,920
No – there was, next few weeks Sunday
1801
01:28:07,920 –> 01:28:11,520
morning, all the big SS came from
1802
01:28:11,520 –> 01:28:15,760
Auschwitz, they gave us extra good soup,
1803
01:28:15,760 –> 01:28:18,199
because normally the SS used to steal from our food too,
1804
01:28:18,199 –> 01:28:19,840
but that time to show off how
1805
01:28:19,840 –> 01:28:21,800
good they treat us they gave us a
1806
01:28:21,800 –> 01:28:24,639
piece of borscht in it, like –
1807
01:28:24,639 –> 01:28:28,960
pea soup, and everything in big this – and they
1808
01:28:28,960 –> 01:28:33,280
took, out scaffolding, and hanged all five of them.
1809
01:28:33,280 –> 01:28:36,199
Everybody has to stand up on
1810
01:28:36,199 –> 01:28:38,040
the pillar, everybody had to look up.
1811
01:28:38,040 –> 01:28:40,239
Because they tried to escape, and this
1812
01:28:40,239 –> 01:28:45,880
is the punishment.
1813
01:28:47,600 –> 01:28:50,199
But that was one, what I already,
1814
01:28:50,199 –> 01:28:53,199
face to face, so
1815
01:28:53,199 –> 01:28:56,400
like people in the ghetto, also was one –
1816
01:28:56,400 –> 01:28:59,040
they hanged a person who tried to escape,
1817
01:28:59,040 –> 01:29:01,360
it was a German Jewm he tried to escape and
1818
01:29:01,360 –> 01:29:05,679
he went through, out of the ghetto,
1819
01:29:05,679 –> 01:29:07,920
he spoke good German –
1820
01:29:07,920 –> 01:29:10,520
but for some reason, they must’ve
1821
01:29:10,520 –> 01:29:12,840
left something on it, and the Poles saw it, and
1822
01:29:12,840 –> 01:29:15,880
they gave him to the Germans, and
1823
01:29:15,880 –> 01:29:17,360
they brought him back to the ghetto and they
1824
01:29:17,360 –> 01:29:19,639
hanged him also – show what
1825
01:29:19,639 –> 01:29:21,199
happens when somebody escaped. It was
1826
01:29:21,199 –> 01:29:23,600
no party, there was no monkey business.
1827
01:29:23,600 –> 01:29:26,520
Your life was nothing.
1828
01:29:26,520 –> 01:29:29,639
You were nobody.
1829
01:29:29,639 –> 01:29:31,560
The Germans, they show such a big love
1830
01:29:31,560 –> 01:29:34,719
for animals, their dogs, their cats – the Jew,
1831
01:29:34,719 –> 01:29:39,800
for him, it was not a human being at all.
1832
01:29:39,800 –> 01:29:43,960
And we came over there in Nordhausen,
1833
01:29:43,960 –> 01:29:47,080
we stayed for a few days.
1834
01:29:47,080 –> 01:29:50,679
Also the luck was, when we came to Nordhausen
1835
01:29:50,679 –> 01:29:54,159
we were lucky, we came from the train to a big wash
1836
01:29:54,159 –> 01:29:56,800
room, and people were standing over there
1837
01:29:56,800 –> 01:29:59,520
in the washroom for hours drinking water.
1838
01:29:59,520 –> 01:30:02,880
They hydrated – I myself, for a half
1839
01:30:02,880 –> 01:30:04,880
hour I drank water. Just the water,
1840
01:30:04,880 –> 01:30:07,400
I didn’t drink water, I don’t
1841
01:30:07,400 –> 01:30:10,360
know, only the snow for seven days, for eight days.
1842
01:30:10,360 –> 01:30:12,880
And this was lucky, they put us in
1843
01:30:12,880 –> 01:30:16,400
the washroom, we could –
1844
01:30:18,760 –> 01:30:23,159
we went over there, and we came and
1845
01:30:23,159 –> 01:30:27,960
we hung out for a few days and
1846
01:30:28,080 –> 01:30:32,040
make a big – at that time, the SS
1847
01:30:32,040 –> 01:30:35,880
they looked for a business to go on.
1848
01:30:35,880 –> 01:30:38,440
If they didn’t have the business to
1849
01:30:38,440 –> 01:30:41,159
go on, they were sent to the Russian front
1850
01:30:41,159 –> 01:30:42,840
to protect the Fatherland.
1851
01:30:42,840 –> 01:30:46,480
And now, Lagerführer, was always in a clique
1852
01:30:46,480 –> 01:30:48,840
over there, they had 10, 15 SS men,
1853
01:30:48,840 –> 01:30:51,040
they looked for ways out. They have
1854
01:30:51,040 –> 01:30:52,520
to have Häftling, they have to have
1855
01:30:52,520 –> 01:30:54,639
prisoners, to guard them,
1856
01:30:54,639 –> 01:30:56,320
so they’re not going to send them –
1857
01:30:56,320 –> 01:30:57,119
he’s not free.
1858
01:30:57,119 –> 01:31:01,080
And over there, I met my
1859
01:31:01,080 –> 01:31:04,880
sister’s friend, Judenherz. He had a
1860
01:31:04,880 –> 01:31:07,280
broken arm.
1861
01:31:07,280 –> 01:31:09,880
I wanted to help him, or to stay with
1862
01:31:09,880 –> 01:31:11,719
him, together, and see what’s
1863
01:31:11,719 –> 01:31:14,320
going on. And I’m going over there, we
1864
01:31:14,320 –> 01:31:19,040
had a guy, SS, who used to bring us
1865
01:31:19,040 –> 01:31:21,080
all every day to work. It was an Austrian
1866
01:31:21,080 –> 01:31:23,239
actually, a short fellow, but he was not
1867
01:31:23,239 –> 01:31:25,400
so bad, he never mistreated nobody. He was
1868
01:31:25,400 –> 01:31:27,880
an older fellow, maybe in the forties. Because at
1869
01:31:27,880 –> 01:31:30,639
that time, already many changed, the SS
1870
01:31:30,639 –> 01:31:32,560
became older. They took the young SS
1871
01:31:32,560 –> 01:31:33,880
and sent them to the front, they brought
1872
01:31:33,880 –> 01:31:36,159
older people and put them in guard.
1873
01:31:36,159 –> 01:31:39,280
But – the murderer, the Croatian he
1874
01:31:39,280 –> 01:31:42,400
was second in charge of the Lagerführer – he stayed
1875
01:31:42,400 –> 01:31:44,920
all the time, to the very end – the one
1876
01:31:44,920 –> 01:31:46,520
who shot that fellow.
1877
01:31:46,520 –> 01:31:50,000
And that Austrian, and I’m standing over
1878
01:31:50,000 –> 01:31:54,719
on … and he says “oh, everybody …” and he,
1879
01:31:54,719 –> 01:31:57,000
I wanted to go with my –
1880
01:31:57,000 –> 01:32:01,400
the guy Judenherz. And he says “Du kleiner Dreher”,
1881
01:32:01,400 –> 01:32:04,040
says “hey, you small hand lathe”, he grabbed me
1882
01:32:04,040 –> 01:32:07,199
here by the – you come with us. And they
1883
01:32:07,199 –> 01:32:10,199
had from 1,800 left to maybe 100, maybe
1884
01:32:10,199 –> 01:32:12,920
it was already 800 or 1,000 died on the way,
1885
01:32:12,920 –> 01:32:15,679
through all the ordeals of the seven days,
1886
01:32:15,679 –> 01:32:18,679
where maybe 800 people, 400, 500,
1887
01:32:18,679 –> 01:32:21,440
I don’t remember, but he remembers that I was a
1888
01:32:21,440 –> 01:32:24,320
craftsman, I was a skilled worker,
1889
01:32:24,320 –> 01:32:26,760
then they picked up 300 people, and brought
1890
01:32:26,760 –> 01:32:29,679
us to … also Tuttlingen.
1891
01:32:29,679 –> 01:32:33,239
Over there we, built the new plant
1892
01:32:33,239 –> 01:32:37,000
under, in the mountains.
1893
01:32:37,000 –> 01:32:40,000
It was very primitive, they have …
1894
01:32:40,000 –> 01:32:41,280
they have nothing,
1895
01:32:41,280 –> 01:32:44,960
with 15 SS and then 300 people.
1896
01:32:44,960 –> 01:32:48,159
When everybody worked over there, dig a little, it was
1897
01:32:48,159 –> 01:32:50,560
not actually – it was nothing much to do,
1898
01:32:50,560 –> 01:32:53,320
I used to work, they gave me in –
1899
01:32:53,320 –> 01:32:56,199
one of the corridors, in the
1900
01:32:56,199 –> 01:32:58,040
mine – it was like a mine, they
1901
01:32:58,040 –> 01:32:59,600
dig out the mountain – they wanted
1902
01:32:59,600 –> 01:33:03,159
to bring all the war production underground, that cannot be
1903
01:33:03,159 –> 01:33:05,440
bombed. And that’s what they used to do and
1904
01:33:05,440 –> 01:33:08,480
there was over there a machine shop with
1905
01:33:08,480 –> 01:33:12,600
Ukrainians working, Ukrainian civil workers.
1906
01:33:12,600 –> 01:33:17,840
And I used to do, it was not much to do.
1907
01:33:17,840 –> 01:33:22,239
This was in April. They were hanging over there for
1908
01:33:22,239 –> 01:33:25,679
a month, maybe five, six weeks.
1909
01:33:25,679 –> 01:33:28,800
And the war is going on,
1910
01:33:28,800 –> 01:33:31,360
and the Ukrainian, we had with the
1911
01:33:31,360 –> 01:33:33,280
Ukrainian, we’re going home.
1912
01:33:33,280 –> 01:33:37,280
They tried to prepare everything to go
1913
01:33:37,280 –> 01:33:41,560
home. And we didn’t know what will happen to us.
1914
01:33:42,119 –> 01:33:46,960
One day, they take us, and we march,
1915
01:33:46,960 –> 01:33:51,800
start marching. We’re marching – Magdeburg,
1916
01:33:51,800 –> 01:33:53,960
big city, and I marched over there in the
1917
01:33:53,960 –> 01:33:56,119
street with the SS, and I see young
1918
01:33:56,119 –> 01:33:59,480
kids, going on, my age – boys and girls,
1919
01:33:59,480 –> 01:34:02,119
free, going in the city and
1920
01:34:02,119 –> 01:34:04,440
I’m here like a prisoner under guard,
1921
01:34:04,440 –> 01:34:06,880
going on the side of the road,
1922
01:34:06,880 –> 01:34:08,960
in the middle and under gun,
1923
01:34:08,960 –> 01:34:11,960
like “what did I do to those people?”
1924
01:34:11,960 –> 01:34:14,119
“why do they treat me like that?” I said,
1925
01:34:14,119 –> 01:34:16,440
“all my youth wasted”
1926
01:34:16,440 –> 01:34:18,800
The best years, best five years that a
1927
01:34:18,800 –> 01:34:21,199
young man has, go to high
1928
01:34:21,199 –> 01:34:23,760
school, girls, dating.
1929
01:34:23,760 –> 01:34:25,360
You fight for your life, all
1930
01:34:25,360 –> 01:34:28,400
the time, you’re starved, you’re beaten, your
1931
01:34:28,400 –> 01:34:30,520
parents are gone.
1932
01:34:30,520 –> 01:34:33,840
You didn’t think about it. You didn’t think.
1933
01:34:33,840 –> 01:34:36,480
I remember, when I was liberated, I was
1934
01:34:36,480 –> 01:34:39,520
sure that the whole world would be at my hands.
1935
01:34:39,520 –> 01:34:42,119
They would kiss me on the hands, like that.
1936
01:34:42,119 –> 01:34:45,159
That there’s nobody who would refuse me.
1937
01:34:45,159 –> 01:34:47,800
What I went through, what
1938
01:34:47,800 –> 01:34:49,840
they did to me, for what?
1939
01:34:49,840 –> 01:34:53,520
We marched to Heiligenstadt, another city,
1940
01:34:53,520 –> 01:34:55,520
we marched for days, marched too.
1941
01:34:55,520 –> 01:34:59,719
They brought us to the Elba river.
1942
01:34:59,719 –> 01:35:03,400
And they put us on a big ship,
1943
01:35:03,400 –> 01:35:08,639
in a tow boat.
1944
01:35:08,639 –> 01:35:10,600
In front of it, and used to schlep two of them,
1945
01:35:10,600 –> 01:35:12,840
two big, how they call them?
1946
01:35:12,840 –> 01:35:15,440
Lorries, the big lorries and
1947
01:35:15,440 –> 01:35:18,600
up front is an engine
1948
01:35:18,600 –> 01:35:23,920
and we go for two, three,
1949
01:35:23,920 –> 01:35:26,119
I don’t know how many days, we went all the
1950
01:35:26,119 –> 01:35:28,960
way to Northern Germany, to the Kaiser –
1951
01:35:28,960 –> 01:35:33,800
from the Elba in the Kaiser Wilhelm Canal, and we
1952
01:35:33,800 –> 01:35:39,600
end up in Lübeck on the Ostsee. The canal goes to Lübeck on the Ostsee.
1953
01:35:40,920 –> 01:35:44,560
And they took us out
1954
01:35:44,560 –> 01:35:52,440
and what it was is that they took us out, and said Josef Schmidt,
1955
01:35:52,440 –> 01:35:57,600
his parents, had a big farm in Schleswig-Holstein, Anspeck,
1956
01:35:57,600 –> 01:36:00,600
the small town was called Anspeck, and they
1957
01:36:00,600 –> 01:36:03,040
were farmers – he came from that place, and
1958
01:36:03,040 –> 01:36:04,960
he says what am I going to do, I’m going –
1959
01:36:04,960 –> 01:36:07,400
I keep my business
1960
01:36:07,400 –> 01:36:10,159
upright and then I go take
1961
01:36:10,159 –> 01:36:11,840
the people with me that we have to
1962
01:36:11,840 –> 01:36:14,159
guard them all the time and he saw the
1963
01:36:14,159 –> 01:36:16,159
Russians are coming in Thuringia
1964
01:36:16,159 –> 01:36:18,280
and we have to go some place and he took
1965
01:36:18,280 –> 01:36:20,719
us to his place, where he
1966
01:36:20,719 –> 01:36:23,199
lives over there, and they put
1967
01:36:23,199 –> 01:36:26,440
us in a big building over there on
1968
01:36:26,440 –> 01:36:31,080
the road, and we, the 300 people, maybe 250
1969
01:36:31,080 –> 01:36:33,960
already, on one side and the 15 SS on the
1970
01:36:33,960 –> 01:36:36,960
other side guarding us, and he went with
1971
01:36:36,960 –> 01:36:39,280
his wife and his father, and wife too and
1972
01:36:39,280 –> 01:36:41,440
his sister went with him all the time –
1973
01:36:41,440 –> 01:36:43,440
they went over there to live on
1974
01:36:43,440 –> 01:36:44,760
on the big farm.
1975
01:36:44,760 –> 01:36:47,320
Now, what do you do with those Jews, you
1976
01:36:47,320 –> 01:36:48,880
don’t have nothing to do with the Jews,
1977
01:36:48,880 –> 01:36:51,159
what you do with the Jews – you send them to
1978
01:36:51,159 –> 01:36:53,880
work, to the farmers. You take
1979
01:36:53,880 –> 01:36:57,480
like five guys, used to take some to women.
1980
01:36:57,480 –> 01:36:59,960
She had to dig up a garden
1981
01:36:59,960 –> 01:37:02,080
for the spring, then we used to dig up the garden,
1982
01:37:02,080 –> 01:37:04,000
she used to give us a little fruit.
1983
01:37:04,000 –> 01:37:07,080
One farmer –
1984
01:37:07,080 –> 01:37:10,159
after the war I was for a few
1985
01:37:10,159 –> 01:37:11,360
years, over there,
1986
01:37:11,360 –> 01:37:14,119
in Neustadt. And I used to go to Anspeck every
1987
01:37:14,119 –> 01:37:17,760
Sunday to drive to him, was he was a
1988
01:37:17,760 –> 01:37:20,239
Dutch farmer who lived in Germany, Dutch or German,
1989
01:37:20,239 –> 01:37:22,960
he was a very nice person. We worked
1990
01:37:22,960 –> 01:37:25,159
for him, the five people, he used to give us food,
1991
01:37:25,159 –> 01:37:26,679
he used to give us potatoes for the
1992
01:37:26,679 –> 01:37:29,400
other guys, he treated us, I’m telling you, he
1993
01:37:29,400 –> 01:37:32,480
didn’t know what to do – and also
1994
01:37:32,480 –> 01:37:34,159
he wanted me to marry his daughter – I don’t
1995
01:37:34,159 –> 01:37:36,719
know why, for some reason everybody – but she schlepped
1996
01:37:36,719 –> 01:37:39,320
the fruits, she was a little thing.
1997
01:37:39,320 –> 01:37:41,560
But the one daughter – very rich – and there
1998
01:37:41,560 –> 01:37:44,159
were two Polish girls, I’ll never forget, working over
1999
01:37:44,159 –> 01:37:48,000
there and they found out I’m Polish – they
2000
01:37:48,000 –> 01:37:50,159
said “why don’t you stay in the
2001
01:37:50,159 –> 01:37:52,520
nights, with us here?” – they lived on
2002
01:37:52,520 –> 01:37:55,520
the top of the house over there. They wanted
2003
01:37:55,520 –> 01:37:58,040
to have some love, I said “you’re
2004
01:37:58,040 –> 01:38:00,639
crazy, I’ll stay here. They’ll shoot me.” I want
2005
01:38:00,639 –> 01:38:03,199
to hide you, stay here, don’t go back.
2006
01:38:03,199 –> 01:38:06,639
But I tell you, I never had the guts. But we
2007
01:38:06,639 –> 01:38:09,239
had an SS man, he was an old man already, and
2008
01:38:09,239 –> 01:38:11,239
I was the speaker between the two guys,
2009
01:38:11,239 –> 01:38:13,480
I knew German from home,
2010
01:38:13,480 –> 01:38:15,599
and he says, “Listen,
2011
01:38:15,599 –> 01:38:18,400
no monkey business. Don’t make
2012
01:38:18,400 –> 01:38:20,719
any pulls. The war is going every day, it’s
2013
01:38:20,719 –> 01:38:23,920
going to end. Just make sure you
2014
01:38:23,920 –> 01:38:26,440
survive. Don’t run away. Don’t ask.. “
2015
01:38:26,440 –> 01:38:31,760
Anyhow, on the 2nd of May 1945,
2016
01:38:31,760 –> 01:38:36,920
Mr. Schmidt, our Lagerführer, brought us to Neustadt,
2017
01:38:36,920 –> 01:38:40,400
Neustadt used to be a base, a U-boat base, one
2018
01:38:40,400 –> 01:38:43,719
two … U-boat base, military base.
2019
01:38:43,719 –> 01:38:47,599
And in Neustadt we saw from far
2020
01:38:47,599 –> 01:38:50,599
away a big ship standing, the big ship
2021
01:38:50,599 –> 01:38:52,760
was named Cap Arcona. Used to – before the war,
2022
01:38:52,760 –> 01:38:54,880
used to be the Hamburg-New York line, Hamburg-
2023
01:38:54,880 –> 01:38:58,360
America line, used to go, travel –
2024
01:38:58,360 –> 01:39:02,360
it was about a 27 or 26,000 ship, a passenger ship.
2025
01:39:02,360 –> 01:39:05,040
And he says “we’re going to bring
2026
01:39:05,040 –> 01:39:08,000
you on the ship and you’re
2027
01:39:08,000 –> 01:39:14,199
going to Sweden” – now before we came to
2028
01:39:14,199 –> 01:39:16,920
Neustadt we were in that place, the same
2029
01:39:16,920 –> 01:39:19,199
place, and they came – the Red Cross
2030
01:39:19,199 –> 01:39:21,360
International Red Cross – came.
2031
01:39:21,360 –> 01:39:24,360
What was humiliating –
2032
01:39:24,360 –> 01:39:26,320
Westjuden – they looked for Jews from
2033
01:39:26,320 –> 01:39:29,800
Western Europe, who speak Dutch
2034
01:39:29,800 –> 01:39:32,480
French, English foreign language.
2035
01:39:32,480 –> 01:39:34,000
Even if you were Polish-Jewish you might get
2036
01:39:34,000 –> 01:39:35,960
away, they took them away. In fact they
2037
01:39:35,960 –> 01:39:38,360
took the Western Jews away, the Eastern
2038
01:39:38,360 –> 01:39:40,599
Jews like myself, the Polish Jew has no rights
2039
01:39:40,599 –> 01:39:42,440
to live – nobody wants to even protect him.
2040
01:39:42,440 –> 01:39:44,800
They just gave us a
2041
01:39:44,800 –> 01:39:46,199
few cigarettes and a few pieces of
2042
01:39:46,199 –> 01:39:48,080
chocolate and they took away –
2043
01:39:48,080 –> 01:39:50,040
Who were these, the Americans?
2044
01:39:50,040 –> 01:39:52,719
No, they were Swedes or Swiss, I
2045
01:39:52,719 –> 01:39:55,440
don’t know, not American. This was an international –
2046
01:39:55,440 –> 01:39:58,760
I think Swiss Red Cross.
2047
01:39:58,760 –> 01:40:02,119
The rest of the people, they ignored they
2048
01:40:02,119 –> 01:40:05,199
picked a few people who knew a foreign language,
2049
01:40:05,199 –> 01:40:09,880
they said yeah I’m a Frenchman, parlez francais, oui, and they got away.
2050
01:40:09,880 –> 01:40:13,159
He comes to us and we, with the rest of us,
2051
01:40:13,159 –> 01:40:16,719
about 300 people, they took us to
2052
01:40:16,719 –> 01:40:19,360
the harbor over there,
2053
01:40:19,360 –> 01:40:22,239
we see there’s a German Marine,
2054
01:40:22,239 –> 01:40:23,920
the Navy over there, guarding,
2055
01:40:23,920 –> 01:40:25,440
and the big ship and they took us off the
2056
01:40:25,440 –> 01:40:28,320
tow boat, tug boat, about 150 each one. And they
2057
01:40:28,320 –> 01:40:30,520
brought us over there to the ship.
2058
01:40:30,520 –> 01:40:34,639
We come to the ship and the SS says,
2059
01:40:34,639 –> 01:40:36,360
this officer standing guard over there,
2060
01:40:36,360 –> 01:40:38,159
and put a big spotlight he says “what’s
2061
01:40:38,159 –> 01:40:40,719
wrong?” – “We have here 300 people,
2062
01:40:40,719 –> 01:40:43,040
you have to take them.”
2063
01:40:43,040 –> 01:40:44,880
He says I cannot take those 300 people, I have
2064
01:40:44,880 –> 01:40:46,679
8,000 prisoners here on board, where do
2065
01:40:46,679 –> 01:40:50,639
you want me to take them. He went back and
2066
01:40:50,639 –> 01:40:52,599
the port commandant gave him a call
2067
01:40:52,599 –> 01:40:54,840
and he went back and he took us and the
2068
01:40:54,840 –> 01:40:58,400
luck was that we – all the prisoners were
2069
01:40:58,400 –> 01:41:00,199
under deck and we were the last one
2070
01:41:00,199 –> 01:41:03,320
on the highest spot, they put us
2071
01:41:03,320 –> 01:41:09,719
10 people in a small cabin for one person.
2072
01:41:09,719 –> 01:41:11,920
And the ship was anchored
2073
01:41:11,920 –> 01:41:13,800
maybe 5 kilometers out because it was a big
2074
01:41:13,800 –> 01:41:15,840
ship, and it was a small port, for
2075
01:41:15,840 –> 01:41:18,199
fishermen – we cannot go. And we were
2076
01:41:18,199 –> 01:41:20,119
standing over there in the morning on
2077
01:41:20,119 –> 01:41:21,320
May 3rd.
2078
01:41:21,320 –> 01:41:24,800
Oh, boom, shooting, what’s going on.
2079
01:41:24,800 –> 01:41:28,239
You wouldn’t even believe. And the
2080
01:41:28,239 –> 01:41:30,000
planes are coming and the Germans are
2081
01:41:30,000 –> 01:41:34,000
shooting in and for some reason they saw
2082
01:41:34,000 –> 01:41:35,840
such a big target they didn’t
2083
01:41:35,840 –> 01:41:38,239
know what was on it – the British,
2084
01:41:38,239 –> 01:41:40,000
they bombed the ship.
2085
01:41:40,000 –> 01:41:43,719
And can you imagine the
2086
01:41:43,719 –> 01:41:47,679
ship, 8,000 prisoners on it, and then
2087
01:41:47,679 –> 01:41:50,440
SS on top of it – machine guns –
2088
01:41:50,440 –> 01:41:53,920
and the 8,000 people the ship burns on
2089
01:41:53,920 –> 01:41:55,760
top, all the buildings on top
2090
01:41:55,760 –> 01:41:58,679
start burning from the bombs what they throw over there.
2091
01:41:58,679 –> 01:42:02,119
And most were Poles and Russian prisoners,
2092
01:42:02,119 –> 01:42:05,520
we were actually the only Jews,
2093
01:42:05,520 –> 01:42:07,520
300, 250 peoples.
2094
01:42:07,520 –> 01:42:11,440
And you couldn’t open the door – the door
2095
01:42:11,440 –> 01:42:15,440
opened outside in the cabin –
2096
01:42:15,440 –> 01:42:17,920
you couldn’t open the door outside
2097
01:42:17,920 –> 01:42:21,040
because it was all full with people
2098
01:42:21,040 –> 01:42:24,920
trying they fought the Germans, the fought the machine guns,
2099
01:42:24,920 –> 01:42:27,040
they fought the SS, everybody tried to escape
2100
01:42:27,040 –> 01:42:29,560
and they go out and –
2101
01:42:29,560 –> 01:42:34,840
the screaming, and we didn’t see nothing, we didn’t know
2102
01:42:34,840 –> 01:42:37,040
nothing, we couldn’t get out. 10 people
2103
01:42:37,040 –> 01:42:39,159
trapped over in the cabin and we
2104
01:42:39,159 –> 01:42:45,840
only feel the ship – listing.
2105
01:42:45,840 –> 01:42:51,800
And in the very end, four Russian and one
2106
01:42:51,800 –> 01:42:54,199
Jewish guy, Stefan, from our concentration camp,
2107
01:42:54,199 –> 01:42:58,480
for some reason, they swam the 5 kilometers, May, in the Ostsee,
2108
01:42:58,480 –> 01:43:03,360
to the port. The whole ship went down, only
2109
01:43:03,360 –> 01:43:05,679
a small spot, you know a ship
2110
01:43:05,679 –> 01:43:08,440
goes like that, and it was not so deep, only
2111
01:43:08,440 –> 01:43:10,719
a small spot on the top.
2112
01:43:10,719 –> 01:43:13,920
And looking we see the skies.
2113
01:43:13,920 –> 01:43:17,360
We see the skies, we didn’t know
2114
01:43:17,360 –> 01:43:19,360
what’s happening, he opens the round, you
2115
01:43:19,360 –> 01:43:21,960
know – the window. One guy
2116
01:43:21,960 –> 01:43:23,679
wants to go out – he cannot go out, almost
2117
01:43:23,679 –> 01:43:25,280
broke his bones, they started to
2118
01:43:25,280 –> 01:43:27,520
push him out – he can’t, he was –
2119
01:43:27,520 –> 01:43:30,560
I was always a slim person
2120
01:43:30,560 –> 01:43:34,520
and I went out and I go out and the ship
2121
01:43:34,520 –> 01:43:38,040
burned was terrible, but what the ship was
2122
01:43:38,040 –> 01:43:40,760
anchored to was big wooden post,
2123
01:43:40,760 –> 01:43:43,199
tremendous big, like that. It was
2124
01:43:43,199 –> 01:43:47,119
with a big anchor to the post
2125
01:43:47,119 –> 01:43:53,760
like big lines …
2126
01:43:53,760 –> 01:43:56,040
And I was all naked because I
2127
01:43:56,040 –> 01:43:57,560
had to take the clothes off,
2128
01:43:57,560 –> 01:43:59,840
and all naked, like a monkey, I went to
2129
01:43:59,840 –> 01:44:02,560
the big line, walk through, and
2130
01:44:02,560 –> 01:44:05,840
sat on the middle – there was, each one was
2131
01:44:05,840 –> 01:44:07,719
heavy like that like five, six, 10 of them,
2132
01:44:07,719 –> 01:44:09,679
like a small island, that would
2133
01:44:09,679 –> 01:44:12,199
anchor the ship. And I was
2134
01:44:12,199 –> 01:44:17,280
sitting up there and here, you don’t hear a sound.
2135
01:44:17,280 –> 01:44:22,719
The people – after hours – almost got
2136
01:44:22,719 –> 01:44:27,080
dark, the British got wind and it was a
2137
01:44:27,080 –> 01:44:30,119
ship with prisoners on it. And they took
2138
01:44:30,119 –> 01:44:33,119
the fishermen, they came out, and they
2139
01:44:33,119 –> 01:44:36,599
took 37 people off and I was the one kid.
2140
01:44:36,599 –> 01:44:39,520
I was like a monkey over there. And they
2141
01:44:39,520 –> 01:44:41,280
took me on the boat, I was completely
2142
01:44:41,280 –> 01:44:44,320
naked, they gave me a blanket.
2143
01:44:44,320 –> 01:44:46,840
I never remember – my sister in school,
2144
01:44:46,840 –> 01:44:49,400
she learned a little English, and started –
2145
01:44:49,400 –> 01:44:51,440
And there was a Navy – there was one of
2146
01:44:51,440 –> 01:44:54,360
the tanks, there was a big beret, he was a tank –
2147
01:44:54,360 –> 01:44:56,840
he gave me a whole bag of biscuits,
2148
01:44:56,840 –> 01:44:59,800
like a tin can, and was a
2149
01:44:59,800 –> 01:45:01,920
Navy officer came, with a staff …
2150
01:45:01,920 –> 01:45:05,000
another officer, and he came down and
2151
01:45:05,000 –> 01:45:08,400
I said to him, he said “how do you feel?”
2152
01:45:08,400 –> 01:45:11,119
in English, I don’t know, I understood a little,
2153
01:45:11,119 –> 01:45:13,760
I said “sir”, I kissed his hand I said “we
2154
01:45:13,760 –> 01:45:16,800
waited 5 years for you.”
2155
01:45:17,599 –> 01:45:21,679
and I had pneumonia, I was cold, I was –
2156
01:45:21,679 –> 01:45:24,080
they took me to the hospital
2157
01:45:24,080 –> 01:45:26,880
over there, and as the war ended it was
2158
01:45:26,880 –> 01:45:28,599
like nothing happened – the Germans,
2159
01:45:28,599 –> 01:45:31,040
right away, treat you like a patient –
2160
01:45:31,040 –> 01:45:36,960
it’s the – the change was so drastic, the
2161
01:45:36,960 –> 01:45:39,639
racial policies, you see after the war the
2162
01:45:39,639 –> 01:45:42,520
German women with black soldiers,
2163
01:45:42,520 –> 01:45:46,440
it’s like everything – like there was no
2164
01:45:46,440 –> 01:45:49,520
Hitler, was no Nazis, nobody was a Nazi,
2165
01:45:49,520 –> 01:45:51,159
everything was like “Mitgang” as they
2166
01:45:51,159 –> 01:45:53,520
call it, like they have to run after him,
2167
01:45:53,520 –> 01:45:55,599
everybody denies it – we didn’t know nothing, we
2168
01:45:55,599 –> 01:45:58,639
didn’t know nothing, we were – it was not
2169
01:45:58,639 –> 01:46:01,080
our fault. I went to the hospital, it was all
2170
01:46:01,080 –> 01:46:03,480
German staff, they treated me like a real patient.
2171
01:46:03,480 –> 01:46:07,639
Maybe they were afraid of the British.
2172
01:46:07,639 –> 01:46:11,360
And this was my ordeal that I survived.
2173
01:46:11,360 –> 01:46:13,320
How I survived, I don’t know, but that’s
2174
01:46:13,320 –> 01:46:15,679
what I’m telling you – from 8,000
2175
01:46:15,679 –> 01:46:18,920
people, 37 they took off the boat, and the rest all
2176
01:46:18,920 –> 01:46:22,000
drowned like mice. Only the five swam. The next
2177
01:46:22,000 –> 01:46:24,119
year, I was over there in Neustadt and we used to
2178
01:46:24,119 –> 01:46:25,920
go, it was normal after a year, we used
2179
01:46:25,920 –> 01:46:27,880
to go swim – you couldn’t swim, you’d get a
2180
01:46:27,880 –> 01:46:31,560
terrible rash. And the next spring,
2181
01:46:31,560 –> 01:46:34,239
the bodies used to swim out all blown up
2182
01:46:34,239 –> 01:46:36,280
like that and the British used to take the German
2183
01:46:36,280 –> 01:46:38,400
prisoners of war to pick them up,
2184
01:46:38,400 –> 01:46:41,000
the bodies over there.
2185
01:46:41,000 –> 01:46:43,000
The same year, the next year, they brought
2186
01:46:43,000 –> 01:46:45,440
underwater divers with special cutting
2187
01:46:45,440 –> 01:46:47,639
tools and they opened up the ship,
2188
01:46:47,639 –> 01:46:49,599
the whole of the ship, and started
2189
01:46:49,599 –> 01:46:54,840
taking out the –
2190
01:46:55,119 –> 01:46:58,280
and I understand there’s a guy,
2191
01:46:58,280 –> 01:47:01,280
Adam my foreman and everything,
2192
01:47:01,280 –> 01:47:03,080
his brother, his two brothers with him,
2193
01:47:03,080 –> 01:47:05,360
they all died over there by trying to get out.
2194
01:47:05,360 –> 01:47:08,480
For some reason, if the ship would go to
2195
01:47:08,480 –> 01:47:12,360
the other side, I don’t know –
2196
01:47:12,360 –> 01:47:20,520
I believe – I don’t know – and that’s what
2197
01:47:20,520 –> 01:47:23,119
I also told you. I was sure after the war,
2198
01:47:23,119 –> 01:47:25,320
the world is going to hold on my hands and
2199
01:47:25,320 –> 01:47:27,560
nothing were they going to refuse you.
2200
01:47:27,560 –> 01:47:31,320
What they did to you, they put you in a DP camp,
2201
01:47:31,320 –> 01:47:33,800
and they gave you a soup a day and said
2202
01:47:33,800 –> 01:47:35,840
“my dear friend you’re on your own, that’s
2203
01:47:35,840 –> 01:47:39,199
it be happy, be happy you survived.”
2204
01:47:39,199 –> 01:47:41,440
Yes, they gave you every night, it was a
2205
01:47:41,440 –> 01:47:43,080
military camp they have a big cinema,
2206
01:47:43,080 –> 01:47:44,480
every night they give you a German –
2207
01:47:44,480 –> 01:47:47,639
these comedies, a movie and that’s
2208
01:47:47,639 –> 01:47:50,679
what it – and Jews were
2209
01:47:50,679 –> 01:47:53,000
lucky because we have the …
2210
01:47:53,000 –> 01:47:55,639
the United Jewish Relief, and they sent
2211
01:47:55,639 –> 01:47:57,840
everything, they – a cigarette
2212
01:47:57,840 –> 01:48:01,840
they had coffee, …
2213
01:48:01,840 –> 01:48:04,719
Was the DP camp in Neustadt? Yes. And how long
2214
01:48:04,719 –> 01:48:11,400
were you there? I was there for about 2 and a half years.
2215
01:48:11,400 –> 01:48:15,440
I worked for the Jewish Relief Unit, it was a
2216
01:48:15,440 –> 01:48:18,239
British, Mr. Cart was in charge, it was a
2217
01:48:18,239 –> 01:48:21,000
British unit. Also I was like an
2218
01:48:21,000 –> 01:48:23,599
interpreter, all these Jewish
2219
01:48:23,599 –> 01:48:26,719
to English, and we
2220
01:48:26,719 –> 01:48:29,239
had some stuff from Ireland Jewish …
2221
01:48:29,239 –> 01:48:31,920
And one Rosenberg she was from
2222
01:48:31,920 –> 01:48:39,880
South Africa. But I could go to
2223
01:48:39,880 –> 01:48:41,560
Britain, be adopted by a Jewish
2224
01:48:41,560 –> 01:48:44,440
family, go to Britain. But I decide no.
2225
01:48:44,440 –> 01:48:47,440
After what I went – I’m going to go to Israel
2226
01:48:47,440 –> 01:48:52,520
you know to be my own, it’s time –
2227
01:48:52,520 –> 01:48:54,159
Israel started fighting
2228
01:48:54,159 –> 01:48:57,840
for independence and I decide that my
2229
01:48:57,840 –> 01:48:59,639
future would be with the Jewish
2230
01:48:59,639 –> 01:49:04,400
people. Did you go into the Haganah? Yes, in Bergen-Belsen I joined.
2231
01:49:04,400 –> 01:49:09,679
I went to the Kibbutz, and over there I joined the Haganah.
2232
01:49:10,560 –> 01:49:14,679
And you lived in Israel how long?
2233
01:49:14,679 –> 01:49:16,280
For 19 years.
2234
01:49:16,280 –> 01:49:18,840
Where and what did you do?
2235
01:49:18,840 –> 01:49:23,199
First I worked in the electric
2236
01:49:23,199 –> 01:49:26,239
company, in the Israeli electric company.
2237
01:49:26,239 –> 01:49:29,440
And I was two years in the military, 1948 I
2238
01:49:29,440 –> 01:49:31,639
fought the 1948 war.
2239
01:49:31,639 –> 01:49:41,920
After, I worked in the Palestine electric company for five years.
2240
01:49:41,920 –> 01:49:46,000
After, I had my own shop for 10 years.
2241
01:49:46,000 –> 01:49:49,880
Until 1967, I fought in the 1956 war,
2242
01:49:49,880 –> 01:49:52,920
and I fought in the 1967 war in November
2243
01:49:52,920 –> 01:49:56,480
1967 I came here to the United States.
2244
01:49:56,480 –> 01:49:58,880
And your family – you married in Israel?
2245
01:49:58,880 –> 01:50:02,919
I married, my children are born in Israel, my wife is Israeli born.
2246
01:50:02,920 –> 01:50:09,239
So you haven’t been far from war all of your life?
2247
01:50:09,239 –> 01:50:13,880
Yes, you see, you can imagine that it
2248
01:50:13,880 –> 01:50:15,840
took many people decide different
2249
01:50:15,840 –> 01:50:18,159
because I was not so idealistic they
2250
01:50:18,159 –> 01:50:20,840
think different because after all I lost
2251
01:50:20,840 –> 01:50:23,880
everybody and I – war, a
2252
01:50:23,880 –> 01:50:27,119
bullet has no address – you go to
2253
01:50:27,119 –> 01:50:29,800
war you can get killed and wiped out
2254
01:50:29,800 –> 01:50:32,880
and then – 6,000 died only in the
2255
01:50:32,880 –> 01:50:34,880
Independence war – can you imagine, at that time
2256
01:50:34,880 –> 01:50:37,040
10% of the population – many of them were
2257
01:50:37,040 –> 01:50:39,560
new immigrants that no brother, no sister, nobody
2258
01:50:39,560 –> 01:50:41,920
knows about. I had some cousin over there
2259
01:50:41,920 –> 01:50:44,239
in Israel, at least somebody would
2260
01:50:44,239 –> 01:50:45,960
cry a little after me,
2261
01:50:45,960 –> 01:50:49,119
remember me. But that’s it – I
2262
01:50:49,119 –> 01:50:52,000
just disregarded everything – I
2263
01:50:52,000 –> 01:50:58,599
said no, after I went wrong, and this was a big plus
2264
01:50:58,599 –> 01:51:02,040
psychologically – they give you a big boost
2265
01:51:02,040 –> 01:51:05,800
because I know people who
2266
01:51:05,800 –> 01:51:07,560
went to other countries, who went to
2267
01:51:07,560 –> 01:51:09,480
concentration camps, they had nightmares,
2268
01:51:09,480 –> 01:51:13,560
they can’t forget – they feel they didn’t
2269
01:51:13,560 –> 01:51:15,719
feel good in the environment, there
2270
01:51:15,719 –> 01:51:19,800
was a strange –
2271
01:51:19,800 –> 01:51:23,199
Israel gave you the pride,
2272
01:51:23,199 –> 01:51:25,960
give you a prospect, give you an
2273
01:51:25,960 –> 01:51:29,560
outlook, give you – a meaning to your life.
2274
01:51:29,560 –> 01:51:32,599
You were proud – you didn’t go – in
2275
01:51:32,599 –> 01:51:35,880
1956 war, my son was born, only a month old,
2276
01:51:35,880 –> 01:51:38,960
he wasn’t even – he was circumcised
2277
01:51:38,960 –> 01:51:42,280
Wednesday and Thursday I took
2278
01:51:42,280 –> 01:51:44,280
my kit bag and I went to war, that’s it.
2279
01:51:44,280 –> 01:51:47,599
Kiss my wife and this is not a
2280
01:51:47,599 –> 01:51:49,800
thing, you’re a soldier, you’re
2281
01:51:49,800 –> 01:51:53,119
in your own country, that’s it.
2282
01:51:53,119 –> 01:51:54,960
Over the years have you found
2283
01:51:54,960 –> 01:51:58,119
it easier to talk about the Holocaust or
2284
01:51:58,119 –> 01:52:00,040
to talk about the things you talked
2285
01:52:00,040 –> 01:52:02,719
about here or is it hard for you to?
2286
01:52:02,719 –> 01:52:06,480
I don’t talk because you
2287
01:52:06,480 –> 01:52:08,920
talk about it –
2288
01:52:08,920 –> 01:52:12,800
it’s – you have kids and
2289
01:52:12,800 –> 01:52:16,560
it can bring resentment toward
2290
01:52:16,560 –> 01:52:18,560
other people, you know how it is.
2291
01:52:18,560 –> 01:52:21,960
I don’t want to poison their life.
2292
01:52:21,960 –> 01:52:24,719
I went through it, it was a –
2293
01:52:24,719 –> 01:52:28,079
but I told them always, don’t
2294
01:52:28,079 –> 01:52:32,159
forget, you were born a
2295
01:52:32,159 –> 01:52:35,159
Jew, you will live a Jew, you will die a
2296
01:52:35,159 –> 01:52:37,280
Jew. Nothing going to – don’t try
2297
01:52:37,280 –> 01:52:39,679
even to forget it, because others don’t let
2298
01:52:39,679 –> 01:52:42,119
you forget it. That’s it. You
2299
01:52:42,119 –> 01:52:45,560
stand up for who you are and be proud of it.
2300
01:52:45,560 –> 01:52:47,520
If you think you change your name, you
2301
01:52:47,520 –> 01:52:49,040
change you’ll manage, you change your
2302
01:52:49,040 –> 01:52:51,760
friends – nothing is going to help you.
2303
01:52:51,760 –> 01:52:53,920
Just stand up for your rights and that’s it.
2304
01:52:53,920 –> 01:52:57,679
And if somebody tries to tell
2305
01:52:57,679 –> 01:52:59,679
you something, that he’s better than you,
2306
01:52:59,679 –> 01:53:02,159
then let them know that he’s not. You don’t
2307
01:53:02,159 –> 01:53:04,920
have to feel …
2308
01:53:04,920 –> 01:53:07,480
human being, and you …
2309
01:53:07,480 –> 01:53:09,000
if you want to have your rights,
2310
01:53:09,000 –> 01:53:10,960
you have to fight for it, and if you have
2311
01:53:10,960 –> 01:53:14,159
to take a gun, and fight for it,
2312
01:53:14,159 –> 01:53:16,320
then you take a gun and fight for it.
2313
01:53:16,320 –> 01:53:19,199
Because that’s it or you get killed or
2314
01:53:19,199 –> 01:53:22,119
you kill somebody. There’s no way out.
2315
01:53:22,119 –> 01:53:25,280
Because the Jews, what the Jews went through,
2316
01:53:25,280 –> 01:53:28,000
they always accommodate
2317
01:53:28,000 –> 01:53:31,119
everybody, they always try to
2318
01:53:31,119 –> 01:53:33,320
smooth things out, they always try to pay
2319
01:53:33,320 –> 01:53:35,599
off to let them live, they always make –
2320
01:53:35,599 –> 01:53:39,360
find peace, and it doesn’t work.
2321
01:53:39,360 –> 01:53:42,040
It hasn’t worked for 2,000 years and it’s
2322
01:53:42,040 –> 01:53:45,199
not going to work now. That’s it.
2323
01:53:45,199 –> 01:53:47,520
Thank you very much, Mr. Biezunski, for a very
2324
01:53:47,520 –> 01:53:50,719
informative and interesting story. And thank
2325
01:53:50,719 –> 01:53:55,599
you for sharing it with us. You’re welcome.